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#217146 - 12/25/05 02:26 AM Please, Please get a life Please
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Its once again time for the post that seems like ritual around here. Why all the petty Bruce Lee posts? He has been dead and gone for a quarter century. Let it go. What is it that is so compelling about arguing over whether or not the man was a street fighter or if he was as good as the movies made him look? What do you people gain from the idolization or degredation of a man that almost virtually none of you have had contact with on a personal basis?

Do the naysayers out there sleep better by saying that Bruce wasnt that great? Do you feel better by lying to yourself and saying you could beat him? Do you suddenly feel smarter when you think you find a flaw in his logic or process?

And to you Idolizers, do you feel like a better MA because you can quote everything Bruce Lee ever said? Do you Think that maybe after enough praise the spirit of Bruce Lee will come back in your body to teach us unbelievers an incredible lesson?

Its obvious to me, a man with no interest one way or the other, that the man has become nearly religious to some of you. And since that is so the whole topic is on the verge of being banned from the forum. Please, exchange, teach and learn and leave a dead man alone to be dead.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#217147 - 12/25/05 09:20 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

..Do you Think that maybe after enough praise the spirit of Bruce Lee will come back in your body to teach us unbelievers an incredible lesson?...




O'course!!!! Why, they even made a movie of that very thing!!!! Which, BTW, also launched J.C. Van Damme's career in Hollywood, so there's some very powerful juju in the subject!
Happy holidays Chen and forum. On a serious note, I couldn't agree more with what CZ wrote, but I was in the mood to pull his leg!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#217148 - 12/25/05 09:40 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
On a related subject, there's also a plethora of threads having to do with the influence of Judo on JKD or the influence of TKD on JKD, etc. Now, I've yet to set foot in a JKD kwoon, so I'm an outsider. But if memory serves me, Lee wrote that JKD wasn't a style, it was a concept. The concept had to do with no barriers or limits, no preconceptions and no unchanging patterns. So anything that was proven to work was absorbed and adopted.
Now, if that is so, then it stands to reason that if something from Judo was found to work it would find it's way into JKD. Ditto for TKD. Or BJJ. Or MT. Etc., etc. So am I missing something or would the expected thing from JKD be that it would act as a vacuum cleaner and suck up every useful technique that came it's way, and therefore not worth rehashing the subject over and over?
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#217149 - 12/25/05 09:51 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
It's so typical for a JKD forum because no one really understands JKD.

Because Bruce Lee has reached the status of Christ, Buddha, and Mohammed, you have to expect such things. JKD IS a religion to many, with Lee as it's savior.

When famous people die young, they ALL tend to reach cult hero status.


-John

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#217150 - 12/25/05 04:05 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The vacuum is a good analogy. Unfortunately it also sucks up a lot of crap as well. JKD wasnt intended to be a style persay but it now is. You have the concept and what is taught as the physical style.

As for bruces DemiGod status, I find it sad and more than a little disturbing. Even he said Im just a man.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#217151 - 12/25/05 05:36 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
Paranormalma Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 74
Quote:

The vacuum is a good analogy. Unfortunately it also sucks up a lot of crap as well. JKD wasnt intended to be a style persay but it now is. You have the concept and what is taught as the physical style.

As for bruces DemiGod status, I find it sad and more than a little disturbing. Even he said Im just a man.




Buddha said the same thing as his philosophy became popular...and look how that one turned out.

Theres no stopping it.

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#217152 - 12/25/05 06:14 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Paranormalma]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Is a human so dependent on imitation that we resort to lifting single men into untouchable status such as Buddha or Bruce Lee? Its as if everyone heard someone say something smart and instead of having a smart reply they go on repeating what they heard to sound smart. The problem is that it doesnt make them sound any smarter. In fact it detracts and thats why Ive waged an unwinnable war against these types of posts. So that hopefully people will begin to think and explore for themselves instead of following the path of someone else. Every man should be unafraid to blaze his own path.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#217153 - 12/26/05 11:53 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
**Disillusioned and holding back his tears, Joel begins to take down his shrine to Chen Zen, candles and all.**

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#217154 - 12/31/05 09:46 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: MAGon]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
MAGon, to be fair consider that if you want to develop a limitless 'style' based on concepts, you have to develop the concepts from somewhere. As Lee was predominantly a Wing Chun guy he was not actually noted as much for his kicking as his punching. Indeed, he was known to consider kicking (particularly high kicking) in a lesser light.

However, this changed. likewise, his exposure to other styles, such as boxing and Judo also helped him develop his concepts of fighting. Therefore I fail to see how questions about which arts influenced his development of JKD concepts is such a bad thing.

I spoke with a KF sifu who was convinced Lee knew all about high kicks from chinese styles, and said there was no reason for anyone to study multiple arts because Chinese KF contained everything. Well history shows that actually Korean stylists and Savate stylists had more of an influence on Lee's philosophy concerning kicks than Chinese styles did.

Of course, this doesn't make us better at our own art because we know this but it can help widen our own horizons when we consider what influences led to the development of JKD concepts.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#217155 - 12/31/05 03:24 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: JoelM]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Awww Joel why is that?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#217156 - 12/31/05 10:05 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: trevek]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Hi, trevek.
No, that wasn't my point at all. In fact I think Lee was correct in his approach. The point I tried to make was that JKD seems, from it's core principle, by definition to allow itself to be influemced by other arts it comes into contact with. If this is so, isn't it kind of unproductive to wonder if JKD was influenced by this or that? It goes without saying.
Also, add the fact that each individual instructor would be doing the right thing if he added to the JKD he was taught whatever other art he happened to have been exposed to. Then it really becomes impossible to trace what other influences have shaped JKD. It's limitless.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#217157 - 01/01/06 07:44 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: MAGon]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Fair do's

I agree, I was just considering things from a historical point of view.

Anyway, who cares

Happy New Year.

TREV
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#217158 - 01/01/06 08:31 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: trevek]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

...Happy New Year.

TREV




Likewise!!!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#217159 - 01/03/06 01:21 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: MAGon]
Layzie_Bone Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 5
Chuck Norris wouldn't allow such a post. Can't we all just be friends? Why must we fight?

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#217160 - 01/06/06 11:26 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Layzie_Bone]
RavenG4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 34
Loc: New Jersey, USA
JKD is more of a concept than a "style" of fighting. It allows the practitioner to decide what works for them. Isn't that what the philosophy of JKD is all about? using what works for you? JKD they teach you different moves and thing but you take what you need and make it your own. If you know multiple martial arts or "styles of fighting" then you can take what you want from them and make it your "style." that is ultimately what the concept of JKD is all about.
_________________________
"Evil is Powerless if the good are unafraid."- Ronald Reagan

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#217161 - 01/06/06 02:33 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
VigilanteSilver Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 33
Loc: Location, Location!
Frankly I think Bruce Lee achieved god-like status for the same reason people keep shrines of J-Lo and her revolting arse; they yearn to be important. "Maybe by worshipping the omniscient presence that is Bruce, he will give me his talent, and I can be a martial arts superstar by the end of the week."

Yeah right.

No one can deny that Bruce was talented. But so is Jet Li, Tony Jaa, Jackie Chan, all in their own way. They are all martial artists, and they are all actors. If there's anything godlike about them, it's the fact they haven't died of "chronic misadventure" like Bruce did.
_________________________
Thank you sir, may I have another?!

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#217162 - 01/06/06 03:21 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: VigilanteSilver]
RavenG4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 34
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Quote:

Frankly I think Bruce Lee achieved god-like status for the same reason people keep shrines of J-Lo and her revolting arse; they yearn to be important. "Maybe by worshipping the omniscient presence that is Bruce, he will give me his talent, and I can be a martial arts superstar by the end of the week."

Yeah right.

No one can deny that Bruce was talented. But so is Jet Li, Tony Jaa, Jackie Chan, all in their own way. They are all martial artists, and they are all actors. If there's anything godlike about them, it's the fact they haven't died of "chronic misadventure" like Bruce did.




Actually I think it's not a "god like" status he's acheived it's more of a Legendary Status. Since he died so young his "legend" of who he was and what he did for/to the world of Martial Arts. For some he Might be considered some type of god like figure but I think those are fringe people. Most consider sifu Bruce Lee to be a legend, a revolutionary, a philosopher, and a great actor. I know that is how I see him (almost the the point of fanatical).

Don't get me wrong though. Jet Li, Jackie Chan and the other martial artists and asian stars in the US wouldn't have had much of a chance if it wasn't for Bruce Lee. He definitely "kicked" the door open for them.
_________________________
"Evil is Powerless if the good are unafraid."- Ronald Reagan

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#217163 - 01/19/06 01:27 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: RavenG4]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Also, many or dare I say most non-MAists don't really care that much about Bruce one way or the other. He's just "that guy in all those karotty movies".

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#217164 - 01/19/06 03:27 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: ShikataGaNai]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
A professor I know, who teaches about sport sociology (and has a big interest in wrestling) was totally unaware of Lee as a MA theoritian and writer.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#217165 - 01/24/06 03:11 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: VigilanteSilver]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

..for the same reason people keep shrines of J-Lo and her revolting arse...




Pray tell, WHAT'S WRONG WITH J-LO'S @$$???!!! I'm going to go light the candles of my shrine now. I EXPECT TO GET A SATISFACTORY EXPLANATION BY THE TIME I GET BACK!!!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#217166 - 01/27/06 08:53 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: MAGon]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Hi. My background is in other martial arts. I have just started to study J.K.D.

I think all martial arts have common techniques that cross over. Thai boxers use a thigh kick. So do most martial arts or rather its in their curriculum.
With regards to the endless arguments about where techniques came from.
They came from some enlightened human beingís some where in the human history.


It would seem that Bruce Lee did what others had done before and after. He minimised the amount of available techniques and then perfected them enough to use them..
However this doesnít mean to say that the other discarded techniques from other fighting arts would not work. Perhaps the way of thinking might be perfect the techniques that your training Then add others.

Bruce Lee films created a mass interest in all of the martial arts at that time. What he achieved with that was fantastic. Very few people had heard of kung fu. The fact he was a successful film star and combined with his excellence in martial arts would give him a higher status.

As regards his fighting ability it I think it would be like any other human. If you have it at the time you might win. If you havenít trained or kept up the training you might not.

If any body would like to discuss with myself any techniques within JKD please do but just technique discussion. Im not interested in who hasnt heard of Bruce Lee, Bruce Lee wasnt a fighter or some ones arse.Keep it to
technique's please.

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#217167 - 02/07/06 12:01 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
wonphi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
gosh, just leave the people that idolize Bruce. Maybe we don not know him, but it is because of Bruce's influence have i seen many people become more confident, encouraged and actaully take interest in martial arts and become a better person spiritually, and physically. we may not have known Bruce or may not have seen his potential, but influencing the lives of so many people for the better even though he has been away from us from so long is a very positive thing, and for that, he deserves a spot in my books.
_________________________
What makes a man great is the things he HAS DONE that teach and influence man to be a better man.

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#217168 - 02/18/06 08:09 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: wonphi]
ShangTsung Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 104
Loc: Bomb factory
well said
_________________________
OMG MUDKIP MAN WAN ME 9000 INTERNETZ

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#217169 - 02/18/06 02:22 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: ShangTsung]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Look, I have no problem with people who are fans of Bruce. Im a fan. I own most of his books and movies. I even have a pair of nunchukas with his picture on them. However, I dont go around imitating his every movement, or praising his "Super unbeatable Godlike abilities" either. I dont agree with every statement he ever made or wrote down. I believe honestly that he was in fact a ego maniac. He was also very hot tempered. And although he had good form and speed doesnt necessarily mean he was a world class fighter either. And it certainly doesnt support him making statements such as "I could beat any man in the world". When it all boils down to it he was just another man like me or you. He was just lucky enough to have his voice heard.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#217170 - 02/22/06 08:25 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: andy4]
wonphi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
you just don't get it, he meant that he can beat any man in the world because he would rather think that and become better rather than think of himself as a short and weak person.

a lot of people have anger problems and he would rather have an ego than be a shy person or wuss. i would rather have an ego than act like a weakling. he said he would rather over train than under train his martial arts, and i do believe he was a great fighter because he actually trained hard every day. world class or not, it is not known, but the thing that matters is that i would rather have people copying Bruce Lee and actually care about their health and physique and martial arts rather than not copy him and learn to be a bully or a weakling or a couch potato.
like i said, people don't know whether he is a world class fighter or not, but what makes him great is the things he has done for Chinese American cinema and what he has done to influence people even long after his death. he may be just another man, but he as a human being which he refered to as himself, has touched and influenced more people than most other men have during his short life and far beyong after his death.

this is what i think makes him really great besides being a fighter with a different theory, and speed.
_________________________
What makes a man great is the things he HAS DONE that teach and influence man to be a better man.

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#217171 - 03/01/06 11:46 AM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
Trejo539 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 22
who would u consider a world class fighter then?

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#217172 - 03/01/06 09:30 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: andy4]
wonphi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
mei i would consider a world class fighter a world champion on martial arts of some sort, with titles and what not.

like i said though Bruce was more of a street fighter and he believed fighting is fighting no rules no nothing, biting is allowed, groin attacks are allowed and etc, so that is why i said we did not know Bruce's potential because those kinds of attacks are restricted in fighting tournaments.

i do consider Bruce a great martial artist because of his demonstration, speed, skill fitness and power, and i know that with those combined you will be a force to be reckoned with.

but what makes him great to me besides his martial arts power and skill and etc is his influence to martial artists and mankind in the new century who are fortunate enough to watch his films, his interviews and his dedication and use it as an example to motivate themselves to me better people.
_________________________
What makes a man great is the things he HAS DONE that teach and influence man to be a better man.

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#217173 - 03/06/06 01:50 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Trejo539]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Who would i consider world class? I'll give you my list but first let me tell you why these people are on my list and Mr. Lee is not. Bruce never had a competetive fighting record. He didnt do tournaments, or sport fighting of any sort other than in his own dojo. With the exception of the Wong Jack Man fight he never had a fight that presented a challenge and its quite debatable rather or not he won the fight against Wong. Being a world class fighter in my eyes means defeating foes, and having a good record at doing so but the opponents must have considerable skills.

So here is my list. No particular order. Randy Cotoure, Chuck Liddell, Matt Hughes, Rich Franklin. Jhoon Rhee. Benny the Jet. There are others but those are just a few.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#217174 - 03/06/06 04:58 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: andy4]
wonphi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
yes chen that is how i feel, Bruce had unkown potential because he never had document fights, he did not believe in restriction like the ones in tournaments so he never entered, though in his demo he did whip some guy EASILY.

Bruce is more of an influence to martial artists and a pioneer to many people. i consider him a great martial artist but not yet world class becuase it is unkown, but even in death he is more famous and more known and recognised than many living world class fighters today.
_________________________
What makes a man great is the things he HAS DONE that teach and influence man to be a better man.

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#217175 - 03/07/06 06:04 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Chen: Bet you didn't know what you were getting into when you started this thread. In that you were trying to quiet down the BL BS, it sure has backfired!
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#217176 - 03/17/06 04:00 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: MAGon]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You're tellin me! Sheesh!
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#217177 - 03/24/06 04:11 PM Re: Please, Please get a life Please [Re: Chen Zen]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Bruce Lee did the following:

1.Took many concepts already freely written and talked about by the martial community, consolidated them and presented them in an 'every man' fashion that many could relate to, without the more esoteric content that much MA literature tended to contain.

2. Provided a handsome, articulate and aestheticaly impressive 'figurehead' for MA in the public eye.

3. Took his charisma and ran with it, both in the media, and in his life as a teacher.

4. made 2.5 great movies, the rest of them were, quite frankly, not that hot. (Cord dives for the fallout shelter)

Look guys, he was a good athlete, a good manipulator of the media, and no doubt a good Martial artist. All of these things he succeeded at within the rather ordinary confines of being a normal human being.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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