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#216799 - 01/03/06 12:07 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Deltaforce69]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Deltaforce,

I don't get it and was admittedly too lazy to read through this entire listing. But, you have confused a couple of things here with Mas Oyama and Kyokushin and Okinawan karate.

Mas Oyama was not Okinawan nor did he practice Okinawan Karate. Mostly Shotokan with some Goju thrown in. How much of the Okinawan stuff is present in his take on karate is debatable. But the Japanese Karate as prestented through Shotokan is not.

I think he did a good think with his application of full contact which others have amplified and continued, but I don't get your post and have to agree with Brian here.

How much training have you had in karate and in what styles?

Kyokushin is Japanese Karate and I have never heard of bogu kumite used in Kyokushin.

-B

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#216800 - 01/03/06 05:34 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: butterfly]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
you did not get it! Please read carefully my posts

Just mentioned Mas Oyama as an example of one that understood the importance of body conditioning for an effective use of karate techniques. Believe me i am aware that kyokushinkai is Japanese and that as nothing to do with Okinwan karate unless we want to mention that Mas Oyama took lessons in Funakoshi (okinawan)'s karate that i believe was not even called shotokan at the time

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#216801 - 01/03/06 05:46 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Deltaforce69]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.............
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#216802 - 01/03/06 07:28 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: BrianS]
Toudiyama Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 229
Loc: Zaandam, Netherlands
I think a combination of Wado style Hagashi uke and sukui uke blocks and the way Ashihara blocks are done, is best suited for practical use

As far as conditioning goes, the founder of Wado said it nicely, why disfigure your body all your life for a fight that might never happen

My punches were just as hard as someone puching the makiwara all the time

a proper block shouldn't need any conditioning, it should make the opponent miss altogether without excerting to much power

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#216803 - 01/03/06 09:10 PM Re: karate blocks [Re: BrianS]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

Any karate is 'real karate'. I hate it when people think they are the only ones doing it right.
Oyama was extraordinary.Where are all the 'real' karateka that followed him? He found what worked for him and it won't necessarily work for everyone.
BTW,you still haven't told me what you do for conditioning.




Hard blocks are part of gross-motor training and body conditioning, and there are instances when you can't get outta the way, so you better be able to soften the impact with a good hard block. This is where two-man drills are so important, even moreso than jiyu kumite. Also in many old styles of karate emphasis is placed on using your rear guard hand as a spare block that parries or softens the blow by deflection and impact in conjunction with the front guard fist. Real karate trains for parrying, impact blocking, striking the strike, dodging, ducking, getting the opponents rear corner with body-change; for any forseeable circumstance. That is if you have a good teacher in a real karate style.

Sorry Mr. Mod that doesn't want to learn anything from me, but you are dead wrong. If you do Goju but don't practice muchimi, koteate/kotekitai, hit the makiwara (not to get calloused knuckles either), use the chi ishi, tetsu bo, earthen jars or the myriad other devices and hojo undo replete in REAL karate (at least for some time in your training), then you're doing gendai budo. Quit calling it karate.

Just like so many other things, there is the real, the kinda' real and the not-so-real-at-all. If you think a facsimile of a notion of a diluted version of a form of something real means it's real, then you're not smart. It's just a pseudo-representation of a philosophical form--- PERIOD. Argue all you want, be as inclusive as you want, but you're still wrong in your assumption.

There is real karate out there, and real teachers, on every continent. Most of it IS Okinawan Karate SOME of it is not. Like most things the average dojo and teacher is just that- average- that doesn't equate to "real" or "good". Every once-in-a-blue moon you find someone who's legit, someone who truly understood the real karate that was taught to them and who knows how to convey the message to anyone, no matter if they've made some slight modifications to fit their mind-body type.

Modern karate training techniques which include boxing and judo principles to train in just are not enough. You need the old and the new in conjunction. You can get the gist of what it's like to hit something solid with a heavybag, but nothing can prepare your fist for proper impact with an immovable/almost immovable object like a good makiwara can. Additionally if you wrap your hands and wrists and use bag gloves then you're doing half-assed boxing/kickboxing conditioning, which has nothing whatsoever to do with self-preservation.

Look if boxing was so great, the best of the striking arts, and if kickbxoing was the end all be all of striking styles then a lot of guys who could box would never have switched completely to real karate back in the day. Trias, Mike Stone and a host of other karate legends come to mind. Many of these guys were amateur champs in boxing in various weight catagories. Boxing may have good ring conditioning but it's not for the streets, just as most kickboxing isn't either. You also forget that American Kickboxing was started by mostly traditional Shorin Ryu karate-ka who were at best journeyman shodans. So kickboxing is a small part of karate, made almost exclusively for the ring, mot really for the street.

You can argue all you want but a lot of us really do the "real" versus the bandwagon or the presumed.

Also, I'm not necessarily agreeing with Delta, I'm disagreeing with Brian, master of the ping-pong ball prosthesis steelo. Get your paddles-- "Hajime"!!!


Edited by SonOfSoken (01/03/06 09:13 PM)

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#216804 - 01/03/06 11:36 PM Re: karate blocks [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
you already know this, but maybe you forgot...
on a technicallity of terms "gendai budo" means an Art established (by Japan) post Meiji (1868). Therefore Japanese 'Karate' by definition is gendai (modern).

Koryu are Arts established before 1868.

Since Okinawans didn't really have a system of 'establishing' Arts the same sytematic and political way Japan did things...the terms Gendai and Koryu don't translate well to 'old school' Okinawan Arts. IMO

Reguardless of Okinawa becomming part of Japan in 1879, If you are talking about Okinawan Toudi or 'Te' you aren't really talking about 'Karate'...you are talking about Karate's predecesor and you should be doing so using Okinawan terms\proper kanji. The very fact you use Japanese terms to describe an Okinawan Art is idicitive of the inherent 'Japanization' of whats available today in Karate.

As hard as a few early 20th century masters endevored to keep their 'Toudi' pure, alot was lost and/or changed to the pull of Japan's influence. the fact some now call their Art Karate-Jitsu tells me that they are trying to reverse the Japan influence to get their Art working again for it's intended purpose, self-defense.

Just because some of our Arts are further away from the goal doesn't make our effort any less valid. There is simply not enough true masters to go around...we have to work with what we've got.

If you are practicing a 'true' Okinawan Art...then you shouldn't be using Japanese names for it - In that way, it's YOU who should stop calling what you do 'Karate' and read the kanji again that is probably embroided on your Gendai belt (you know, that post-Meiji Japan invention around your waist): 'Toudi'.

I have been taught and I study nothing other than Gendai budo Karate and use a 'reverse engineering' method of figuring it out. Isn't that what you are ultimately doing but perhaps at a different level?

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#216805 - 01/03/06 11:59 PM Re: karate blocks [Re: SonOfSoken]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Sonofsoke,

Once again you grace us with your almighty presence and inflated ego,thanks.
Do you know how I train? Have you been to my school? Then how do you know if what I'm doing is 'real' or not? Is it because my instructors aren't internationally recognized or directly from Okinawan lineage?
In my real karate we spar hard,I've been knocked out and I've ko'ed others as well,we bleed,make trips to the ER in the middle of class,etc. That seemed 'real' to me. I've been doing it that way for 15yrs,all 'real' years.
Our conditioning consists of falling on asphalt,dirt,rocks,banging shins,arms,knuckles,heads,feet,and everything else attached to us when we spar. I'm not near as sensitive to it as I used to be,maybe I'm conditioned? We do knuckle pushups on the asphalt,and I do not wear wraps when hitting a bag,not all the time.
There is a line that needs to be drawn though,which is more important,health and well-being or conditioning? I'm not going to damage my body excessively over the idea that someday I may get into an altercation and it may last long enough for my conditioning to come in play.

Quote:

Sorry Mr. Mod that doesn't want to learn anything from me, but you are dead wrong. If you do Goju but don't practice muchimi, koteate/kotekitai, hit the makiwara (not to get calloused knuckles either), use the chi ishi, tetsu bo, earthen jars or the myriad other devices and hojo undo replete in REAL karate (at least for some time in your training), then you're doing gendai budo. Quit calling it karate.






Why the attitude? Why would anyone want to learn from someone who is so arrogant? I do karate,yes I do.

I look forward to your response,please stay half way civil so we don't have to ban you again.

BTW, Who is your instructor? How long have you been in 'real' karate?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#216806 - 01/04/06 01:37 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Not that I'm taking anyone's side here, but what does sparring "hard" and knocking people out have to do with real karate. You can find that at any MMA gym, but that ain't karate. I believe what SOS is talking about is that karate is a specifically okinawan perspective on H2H fighting. When non Okinwans learn the kata and fighting techniques without learning the Okinawan way of using them it ceases to be karate. Not that it is not effective or valid, just that one thing has been lost and another gained. However, when those uniquely okinwan aspects of karate are kept intact through proper transmission of the style a practioner can add his or her own flavor yet it does not cease to be what some okinawans describe as uchinandi. When someone teaches you their way and you embrace it and stay true to it it becomes your way as well. This is how karate should be. No matter what good intentions people have some people are infact doing what some may describe as "real karate" and some are not. And remember, SOS does not even believe my style of Matsubayashi is "real karate." But he doesn't know me or my style as well as he thinks. But so I won't be accused of being off target I will address karate blocks. First I am not going to even speak about what else a block can be other than a block. But I will say in karate blocks are done offensively with tai sabaki. They are used to deflect or stop initial attacks cold. They are used to "wall off" future attacks. They are used to trap limbs. They are used to destroy attacks. They are almost always done with two hands. Finally the most important aspect of using the effectively is timing. Yes, with proper understanding and application you can negotiate an initial attack, eliminate a second attack's effectiveness, and put yourself in excellent position to commit attempted murder...uh I mean self defense if you so choose before a third attack gets started.

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#216807 - 01/04/06 02:22 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Not that I'm taking anyone's side here, but what does sparring "hard" and knocking people out have to do with real karate.




LOL! You have a point there,I was typing under duress and just trying to get across that he has the wrong impression of our way of training as it realtes to what he believes is 'real'.

I think we all have our own definitions of what karate is. If you ask someone who isn't familiar with ma he would think TKD or MT is karate.

I like your take on blocks,it's how we teach as well. Blocking doesn't have to conform to a certain technique to be effective,in other words,it is a natural action. You wouldn't need Age Uke or Gedan Barai if they were really just ways of deflecting or stopping.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#216808 - 01/04/06 05:35 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: SonOfSoken]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
Amen!

Real Okinawa-te (i am using the traditional name of Karate) goes hand to hand with body conditioning because that is the most efficient way to use it; only in that case blocks become attacks, only in that case the say one blow-one kill can be implemented. Only in this case 'karate' can compare with other combat style such Muay thai efficently.This does not mean that i dislike other way of training, i am just state the obvious.

Gambatte


Edited by Deltaforce69 (01/04/06 05:41 AM)

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