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#216779 - 12/29/05 12:04 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Deltaforce69]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I agree and this bring to another point Karate is completely useless without proper Kote kitae and body conditioning on all part of the body. Actually in china they also condition the chin and cheeks to resist the strikes......




Here we go with conditioning again.

All the conditioning I need I get through sparring and bagwork.
Saying that karate is completely useless without your type of training is 'completely' stupid.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#216780 - 12/29/05 06:55 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: BrianS]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
Quote:

I agree and this bring to another point Karate is completely useless without proper Kote kitae and body conditioning on all part of the body. Actually in china they also condition the chin and cheeks to resist the strikes......




Brian,

perhaps is stupid but have u ever thought why the old okinawan masters insisted so much on it? One kill-one blow etc....

In a very old book of Prof Donn Draeger (hope u know who is, the most deadly martial artist, jitsu not do, and re-known martial arts historian)with one of the last exponent of shaolin kung fu Lohan (Arhat boxing, the father of okinawan karate see bubishi); the old Sifu stated after having explained some techniques and 1 form that all was useless without proper limbs and body conditioning (iron palm etc..)Off course work on a bag is useful but does not strenght for instance your shin to break a limb with a low mawashi geri or a forearm to break a limb if u want etc..

Sorry for the reply but not have understood quite yet how to use it


Edited by BrianS (12/29/05 07:15 AM)

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#216781 - 12/29/05 07:21 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Deltaforce69]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

I agree and this bring to another point Karate is completely useless without proper Kote kitae and body conditioning on all part of the body. Actually in china they also condition the chin and cheeks to resist the strikes......




Brian,

perhaps is stupid but have u ever thought why the old okinawan masters insisted so much on it? One kill-one blow etc....

In a very old book of Prof Donn Draeger (hope u know who is, the most deadly martial artist, jitsu not do, and re-known martial arts historian)with one of the last exponent of shaolin kung fu Lohan (Arhat boxing, the father of okinawan karate see bubishi); the old Sifu stated after having explained some techniques and 1 form that all was useless without proper limbs and body conditioning (iron palm etc..)Off course work on a bag is useful but does not strenght for instance your shin to break a limb with a low mawashi geri or a forearm to break a limb if u want etc..

Sorry for the reply but not have understood quite yet how to use it




One strike one kill huh? Yeah right. Give me one account of that ever happening,ever. Maybe it is because they didn't have ER doctors and modern medicine.

Listen. We don't live in feudal Japan,far from it. You are not doing yourself service by punishing yourself with conditioning that you most likely will never need. And please show me someone breaking bones with their shin or any other limbs.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15811662/an/0/page/0#15811662
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#216782 - 12/29/05 07:25 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: BrianS]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
Bryan, these 2 men one i have met personally and taught me karate are able to break with shins 2 baseball bat

http://www.enshin.com/index2.html



http://www.rik.ne.jp/karate/english/dojyo.htm (I trained with him)

Million of times i repeated this, it depends how you condition your limbs and what liniment you put it, i work in academia so need to write a lot so i do not want to get crippled, i do not have callouses on my hands etc...


Edited by Deltaforce69 (12/29/05 07:28 AM)

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#216783 - 12/29/05 07:34 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Deltaforce69]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
DeltaF. 'ikken hissatsu' is a frame of mind...a commitment in spirit to each strike ending conflict. The common mis-use is, like yours, to over-commit to a strike by inadvertantly comprimising your tactical position in order to literally kill the person with one strike. This is where the fodder for ridicule of 'one hit wonders' comes from.

conditioning is a cost/benefit analysis...a fad of the 70's in OMA dojos was to condition knuckles on a makiwara until dark callouses developed. The short term benefit was hard, pain-free striking. The long-term cost was arthritis and hand deformity. needless to say, people wised up and stopped training that way.

The logic of spending hours a week conditioning your body to handle getting hit (in the neck for instance) doesn't make sense, wouldn't you be better off spending the time practicing how not to get hit? In other words, the 'conditioning' just happens as a result of the training...not the other way around.
Of course, if there is a particular weakness, extra drills to strengthen it makes sense. bone density is affected just as much by diet as well.

just some random thouhgts on the subject...

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#216784 - 12/29/05 07:38 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Deltaforce69]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
from that website:
Quote:

Matsumura Sokon(1809 ~ 1969) served for the King of Ryukyu...



LOL...good conditioning.

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#216785 - 12/29/05 07:46 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
'The logic of spending hours a week conditioning your body to handle getting hit (in the neck for instance) doesn't make sense, wouldn't you be better off spending the time practicing how not to get hit?'

I was speaking about conditioning as a necessity for developing karate power not to mainly absorb hit; however it helps to absorb hit as well. It is not realistic in a street fight to think that you will never been hit (no matter how much train you do you will find always someone more faster) so it is important to cover that.

About deformity of the limbs, already said that proper conditioning and use of proper liniment does not lead to deformity at all and callouses. Plus even if you have develped callouses (an example was Mas Oyama sensei) they analysed his hands with XR and did not find any signs of problems.... It would be very funny and does not make sense if a black belt of karate would break his knuckles in a street fight because has hit the head of someone (believe me very hard to hit from an impact point of view).
The same boxers in a street fight can break their knuckles if not properly conditioned...


Edited by Deltaforce69 (12/29/05 07:48 AM)

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#216786 - 12/29/05 07:50 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Ed_Morris]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81
Quote:

from that website:
Quote:

Matsumura Sokon(1809 ~ 1969) served for the King of Ryukyu...



LOL...good conditioning.




perhaps he is not good in writing in english but believe me very good in full contact; you can see a pic with him and Andy Hug at one of his seminar in okinawa... I do not explain who is Andy Hug because i know who is...

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#216787 - 12/29/05 07:59 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Deltaforce69]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'd like to know what you do for your conditioning.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#216788 - 12/29/05 08:46 AM Re: karate blocks [Re: Deltaforce69]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
my mistake...thought this was a kind of 'juko kai' topic. didn't read it from the top post.

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