FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 29 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ronin1966 3
futsaowingchun 2
ergees 2
GojuRyuboy13 2
cxt 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35584 Topics
432513 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#216188 - 12/20/05 10:47 PM What techniques did Kano drop?
SubZero Offline
Will breakfall for food

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 141
Does anyone know of some examples of dangerous jujutsu techniques that Kano scrapped?

Top
#216189 - 12/21/05 12:19 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: SubZero]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I was under the impression that he removed most of the striking element.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#216190 - 12/21/05 01:01 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: SubZero]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
All of the stand up kicks, strikes and grappling neck cranks. And maybe knee bars and or ankle hooks.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#216191 - 12/21/05 09:02 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: SubZero]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I thought he also dropped the ones he thought wasn't useful, those moves that could only be done while practicing but when under extreme pressure and resisting opponent would turn into something awkward.

But I think he removed most of the ground-fighting. I sense that Judo is very thin on Newaza, although we do have good techniques, I feel they are very few. Jujutsu has a lot more.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#216192 - 12/22/05 06:50 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I would like to hear the actual techniques if possible. I've always wondered about this myself.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#216193 - 12/22/05 09:05 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Leo_E_49]
SubZero Offline
Will breakfall for food

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 141
I'm not sure about him eliminating most of the striking element. I'm not sure what jujutsu was like back then but it seems that striking isn't emphasized anyway. Also, as far as judo ground work goes I think it just depends more on your sensei. Our sensei heavily emphasizes ground work.

But yeah, examples of specific techniques were actually what I was looking for.
_________________________
"**** OFF! Judean People's Front...We're the PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA!" - The Life of Brian

Top
#216194 - 12/22/05 09:54 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: SubZero]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
JJ PRIOR to the Gracies BJJ was considered too dangerous, to have tournaments. So they sometimes entered Karate meets, once in a 78-79s tournament I was hit in the thorat with hariken (pulled fore knuckle strike I still remember that!!!) by a JJ guy at Brown belt level, bare knuckes back then. He was cautioned and the bout went on after I recovered, it was tough back in those days.

But Judo was heavy in 4 areas THROWS, Grappling, locks and Chokes. I don't know about taking out ineffective moves, I remember seeing fly siccisor throws in a 80s self defense demo by a Judo man!

The difference is that JJ would starts at striking range with hands and feet, then throws that would land you on the corner of the body, or lock your arm in the air whereas when you hit the ground you broke your arm or leg, then it would Incoperate the grappling/arresting techniques, body locks, strikes if need be, and chokes/neck cranks.

Judo was basic safe JJ. The advantage of Judo is that it practiced want it preached you fought resisting opponents daily. Asked anybody that visited a Judo dojo in the 60-70s or Kodokan in Japan they tried to hurt you there.

Gracies Jijitsu is more like Judo with the a twist. Remember their Japanese Instructor was a Judo man!
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#216195 - 12/22/05 03:18 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Neko456]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Neko,

Where did you get that information from? Your post sounds like modern day Judo, but that is not necessarily the Judo Kano created in his day. For Example, he originally wanted Judo to be 3 point matches. The Japanese political machine forced him to change to sudden death. I'm sure politics influenced other areas of his Judo as well, and it's quite possible (likely?) changes were made after his death.

Top
#216196 - 12/22/05 04:17 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: BigRod]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
From watching and training in Judo and JJ from 70s to now. I don't know that much about the Judo in Japan except they'd kick your a$$ if you visited their dojo back then. All in good training that is.
Japanese had an attituded back then, quite is kept, they ruled Judo. JJ was more like Aiki-jujitsu with Karate techniques there was little if any resistance, strikes broke you down, then throws or throws while striking.

As for olympic Judo rules I don't know, we just would randori until it was time to do something else at the Y. Most of the concentration was on throws and then locks, pins and chokes it was just painful fun. Rarely were there point matches.

As for Graices Uncle's Japanese instructor being Judo thats common knowledge.


Edited by Neko456 (12/22/05 04:49 PM)

Top
#216197 - 12/22/05 04:36 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: SubZero]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I will be honest and admit I have a superficial knowledge of Judo, but I do have great admiration for the art and its exponents.

With that said, as far as I understood it Kano did not take atemi out altogether. He taught some atemi to high ranking Judoka, or so I have read. According to the same article, this practice still goes on today, i.e. high ranked Judoka are shown some atemi.

This is just what I have read on the subject. By all means correct me if I am wrong though! I live to learn.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

Top
#216198 - 12/24/05 08:55 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Neko456]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
From my limited base of knowledge, There are no wrist or finger techniques (locks & breaks) in Judo while jujutsu has a complete arsenal of them.

Also, a JJ man will set-up his technique w/ a strke or kick. Then you find yourself thrown, swept, submitted or choked out.

BTW: Ne-waza was always a major component of Judo, it's just that competition rules favored the perfect throw for Ippon (one point or win). Throws were emphasized until BJJ practitioners started entering tournaments & showing well w/ Ne-waza. Ne-waza is back!

BTW: I had a fun rolling last night but due to the fact I haven't rolled in a long time, today I'm really SORE.

Top
#216199 - 12/25/05 12:09 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: hedkikr]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Kodokan Judo includes wristlocks, just not to the extent that Traditional JJ does.

Per Kodokan Judo chapter 15/ Goshin Jitsu:

Ryote-dori, escape from a two hand hold: Defender uses a Nikkyo wristlock against a sleve grab.

Hidari-eri-dori, Left lapel hold: Defender uses a wrist compression and twist (Ikkyo) along with a straight armbar.

Migi-eri-dori, Right lapel hold: Defender uses a Kote Gaeshi wrist turnout throw.

Just for starters.

Only major locks I don't see in the book are things like Shiho Nage. I do see Sankyo in the Katas.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

Top
#216200 - 12/25/05 09:48 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Kote Gaeshi. . in training it works, when under pressure, it doesn't work like it should, similar, but still not the same as in training.

Front Guillotine escape, when he locks you with one hand, you're supposed to twist to the outside and you'll be behind him with a locked arm. Well, in full fighting, this moves always turns into you escaping and end up both people looking at each other at really close distance. The the grappling starts again unless you use atemi.

Many standing locks sometimes doesn't work like it should. . Hard to explain, that's why Judo and BJJ favors to go down to the ground for newaza.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#216201 - 12/26/05 02:03 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
A great book to look at for some of the omitted Kano techiques is Judo A-Z by Syd Hoare.
From what I read Kano omitted most of the leg locks that we see in BJJ because too many judoka were getting hurt in training. Much like we see in the current competitions. Striking was never omitted, Kano just couldn't find away to incorporate it into randori with out loosing students to injury and lessening the perfection of technique that he constantly strived for.. If he lived long enough to be able to test modern safety equipment, he might of found away to do it much like the UFC or Pride fights. But then the whole Olympics thing. Up until his death Kano was always looking to improve the effectivness of Judo. It was a constant struggle for him to keep it a budo art with the effectivness of the bujutsu art that he had learned.
Ne-waza was not a favorite with Kano much for the same reasons that we have today. Grappling is not as exciting as a perfect ippon. Kano was forced to incorporate into his gokyu after his students were being beaten on a regular basis by other schools who excelled in groundfighting.
_________________________
www.bushidomagazine.com

Top
#216202 - 12/27/05 10:04 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Kote Gaeshi. . in training it works, when under pressure, it doesn't work like it should, similar, but still not the same as in training.

You are right if you don't set it up. My experince is it does work after stunning strikes but you don't get the pretty flip in the air (remember we go with it to not experience the pain or break). I've had them dance on one leg screaming, to crumple on the ground, to trying to walk off (I have hip butting them) right to the ground, dropping to one knee shouting you just broke my arm!!! I've never broke anything, but it is a good control technique. Without the strike I've had them snacht right out, into a sweep. Its not the pretty technique seen in the dojo, but does it work. Yes.


I've never seen finger locks in Competitive Judo, there is an art called Combat Judo that looks pretty close to Jujitsu. I don't know were it began (the Instructor said the US Army/Marines) or if it still exist. Maybe its the advance teaching with the strikes.

Anybody heard of Combat Judo?? I have and seen it. Myabe this should be another thread sorry.


Edited by Neko456 (12/27/05 10:08 AM)

Top
#216203 - 12/28/05 12:28 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Fletch1]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Thanks for the info.

Top
#216204 - 01/18/06 07:43 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: hedkikr]
azjudoaikijitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Mesa Az
Kano got rid of alot of the dangerous techniques that are impossible to practice during randori like eye gouges, fish hooks etc since they cannot be practiced in a realistic setting. Pre WW2 Kodokan Judo emphasized more ne waza, but when they tried to make it an olympic sport they eliminated alot of ne waza from competition. If you go to a school that doesnt focus only on sport judo you still learn plenty of ne waza. Kosen Judo heavily emphasizes ne waza.

Top
#216205 - 01/25/06 05:50 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: azjudoaikijitsu]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Was there any connection between the amount of ne-waza and the fact women were allowed to practice Judo (albeit only kata, not randori)?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#216206 - 01/25/06 08:38 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: trevek]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Hi Guys
The lineage of Brazilian jui jitsu was via Maeda. It was said he was a student of jui- jitsu before studying judo. He was impressed by Kano’s training methods that were based mainly around live sparring. To spar correctly and to be able to spar everyday it has to be fairly safe. Thus the removal of striking and dangerous techniques.
In order to keep judo going (as opposed to the decline in jui-jitsu at that time) judo would have had to become a spectator sport.

Kano’s dojo suffered a loss to the jui-jitsu group Fusen-rye. (Kano would lose students) This jui-jitsu group specialised in ne-waza (ground work). Kano quickly started to implement ne-waza. Kano’s group then beat the Fusen-rye group but groundwork then started to dominate judo. (Ground work isn’t really a spectator sport)

Kano brought in rules to restrict ne-wazi to keep judo as a spectator sport. Maeda was impressed by the live sparring (randori) and the impressive ground work (ne waza) that judo had now acquired so he began to train with Kano.

Traditional Jui-jitsu used a lot of fine motor movements like finger locks, wrist locks eye gauges etc. Fine motor movements like this are hard to use when under the stress of combat. So judo is in a way training for combat. Once a student has trained long enough in safe combat (judo) then the self defence skills such as striking, finger locks can be brought in to combat.

Top
#216207 - 01/25/06 05:19 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: andy4]
azjudoaikijitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Mesa Az
Kosen Judo is the closest MA to BJJ, Maeda, was a top Kodokan Instructor, and was part of a colony sent to South America. ALong his travels he made is living taking on all comers in matchesm often times fighting boxers and professional "catch" wrestlers, what would today be known as shootfighters, and submission grapplers. It was from this exp he fine tuned his judo, that he taught to the Gracies.

Top
#216208 - 01/25/06 09:58 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: azjudoaikijitsu]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
In japan, many still refer BJJ as Brazirian no Judo [Brazil's judo].

I asked a japanese Judo teacher and he said that "many japanese don't see BJJ as an sd art like jujutsu, it's more like a sport like Judo that's why many call it Brazilian Judo"..

But I think, that after the success of the Gracie's the Judo fedaration wants a part in it by saying "The Gracie's learnt Judo from Maeda". But we also know that Maeda was sent to S.America by Kano due to the fact he was radically changing Judo focus of nage-waza to ne-waza.

that's my 100 yen
-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#216209 - 01/29/06 09:34 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
At first the Kodokan looked just as Brazilian JuJitsu did. He change the focus to more throwing and sweeping because it looked good in the Olyimpics. At least thats what my book Mastering Jujitsu says.

Top
#216210 - 01/30/06 04:33 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

In japan, many still refer BJJ as Brazirian no Judo [Brazil's judo].




........come again?
_________________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts. Note: The Signature feature is currently not enabled by this bulletin board's administrator. You may use UBB Code in this field, but not HTML. The UBB Code Image tag is not permitted, however.

Top
#216211 - 01/30/06 06:10 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: kusojiji]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Well I daresay he explained it properly the first time, but I'll repeat it.

According to him, a Judo teacher who is Japanese told him that many other Japanese still consider BJJ to be Brazilian Judo, which is pronounced "Burajiria no juudou" in Japanese.

Top
#216212 - 01/30/06 08:24 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: paradoxbox]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
LOL

Guess I'm just enjoying the pronunciation guides!

_________________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts. Note: The Signature feature is currently not enabled by this bulletin board's administrator. You may use UBB Code in this field, but not HTML. The UBB Code Image tag is not permitted, however.

Top
#216213 - 01/30/06 09:34 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: kusojiji]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Try talking to Japanese people who have little to none English vocal experience.

I remember once talking to a Japanese business man. .
"It isu, da time fo da jarpanesu to paw-n da maketo"
[It's time for the japanese to pawn the market].
I broke out like a rabies ridden hyena.

Back to topic.
-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#216214 - 01/30/06 09:48 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Try talking to Japanese people who have little to no English vocal experience.




I have. Tens of thousands of times.
_________________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts. Note: The Signature feature is currently not enabled by this bulletin board's administrator. You may use UBB Code in this field, but not HTML. The UBB Code Image tag is not permitted, however.

Top
#216215 - 01/31/06 10:43 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
azjudoaikijitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Mesa Az
BJJ people actually consider themselves related to Judoka's more so than traditional Jujitsu forms. If you can find a Kosen Judo school, you will find they do lots of ne waza

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki, Taison 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga