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#216198 - 12/24/05 08:55 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Neko456]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
From my limited base of knowledge, There are no wrist or finger techniques (locks & breaks) in Judo while jujutsu has a complete arsenal of them.

Also, a JJ man will set-up his technique w/ a strke or kick. Then you find yourself thrown, swept, submitted or choked out.

BTW: Ne-waza was always a major component of Judo, it's just that competition rules favored the perfect throw for Ippon (one point or win). Throws were emphasized until BJJ practitioners started entering tournaments & showing well w/ Ne-waza. Ne-waza is back!

BTW: I had a fun rolling last night but due to the fact I haven't rolled in a long time, today I'm really SORE.

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#216199 - 12/25/05 12:09 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: hedkikr]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Kodokan Judo includes wristlocks, just not to the extent that Traditional JJ does.

Per Kodokan Judo chapter 15/ Goshin Jitsu:

Ryote-dori, escape from a two hand hold: Defender uses a Nikkyo wristlock against a sleve grab.

Hidari-eri-dori, Left lapel hold: Defender uses a wrist compression and twist (Ikkyo) along with a straight armbar.

Migi-eri-dori, Right lapel hold: Defender uses a Kote Gaeshi wrist turnout throw.

Just for starters.

Only major locks I don't see in the book are things like Shiho Nage. I do see Sankyo in the Katas.
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#216200 - 12/25/05 09:48 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Kote Gaeshi. . in training it works, when under pressure, it doesn't work like it should, similar, but still not the same as in training.

Front Guillotine escape, when he locks you with one hand, you're supposed to twist to the outside and you'll be behind him with a locked arm. Well, in full fighting, this moves always turns into you escaping and end up both people looking at each other at really close distance. The the grappling starts again unless you use atemi.

Many standing locks sometimes doesn't work like it should. . Hard to explain, that's why Judo and BJJ favors to go down to the ground for newaza.

-Taison out
_________________________
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#216201 - 12/26/05 02:03 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
Ed Glasheen Offline
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Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
A great book to look at for some of the omitted Kano techiques is Judo A-Z by Syd Hoare.
From what I read Kano omitted most of the leg locks that we see in BJJ because too many judoka were getting hurt in training. Much like we see in the current competitions. Striking was never omitted, Kano just couldn't find away to incorporate it into randori with out loosing students to injury and lessening the perfection of technique that he constantly strived for.. If he lived long enough to be able to test modern safety equipment, he might of found away to do it much like the UFC or Pride fights. But then the whole Olympics thing. Up until his death Kano was always looking to improve the effectivness of Judo. It was a constant struggle for him to keep it a budo art with the effectivness of the bujutsu art that he had learned.
Ne-waza was not a favorite with Kano much for the same reasons that we have today. Grappling is not as exciting as a perfect ippon. Kano was forced to incorporate into his gokyu after his students were being beaten on a regular basis by other schools who excelled in groundfighting.
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#216202 - 12/27/05 10:04 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Taison]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Kote Gaeshi. . in training it works, when under pressure, it doesn't work like it should, similar, but still not the same as in training.

You are right if you don't set it up. My experince is it does work after stunning strikes but you don't get the pretty flip in the air (remember we go with it to not experience the pain or break). I've had them dance on one leg screaming, to crumple on the ground, to trying to walk off (I have hip butting them) right to the ground, dropping to one knee shouting you just broke my arm!!! I've never broke anything, but it is a good control technique. Without the strike I've had them snacht right out, into a sweep. Its not the pretty technique seen in the dojo, but does it work. Yes.


I've never seen finger locks in Competitive Judo, there is an art called Combat Judo that looks pretty close to Jujitsu. I don't know were it began (the Instructor said the US Army/Marines) or if it still exist. Maybe its the advance teaching with the strikes.

Anybody heard of Combat Judo?? I have and seen it. Myabe this should be another thread sorry.


Edited by Neko456 (12/27/05 10:08 AM)

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#216203 - 12/28/05 12:28 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: Fletch1]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Thanks for the info.

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#216204 - 01/18/06 07:43 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: hedkikr]
azjudoaikijitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Mesa Az
Kano got rid of alot of the dangerous techniques that are impossible to practice during randori like eye gouges, fish hooks etc since they cannot be practiced in a realistic setting. Pre WW2 Kodokan Judo emphasized more ne waza, but when they tried to make it an olympic sport they eliminated alot of ne waza from competition. If you go to a school that doesnt focus only on sport judo you still learn plenty of ne waza. Kosen Judo heavily emphasizes ne waza.

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#216205 - 01/25/06 05:50 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: azjudoaikijitsu]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Was there any connection between the amount of ne-waza and the fact women were allowed to practice Judo (albeit only kata, not randori)?
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#216206 - 01/25/06 08:38 AM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: trevek]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Hi Guys
The lineage of Brazilian jui jitsu was via Maeda. It was said he was a student of jui- jitsu before studying judo. He was impressed by Kanoís training methods that were based mainly around live sparring. To spar correctly and to be able to spar everyday it has to be fairly safe. Thus the removal of striking and dangerous techniques.
In order to keep judo going (as opposed to the decline in jui-jitsu at that time) judo would have had to become a spectator sport.

Kanoís dojo suffered a loss to the jui-jitsu group Fusen-rye. (Kano would lose students) This jui-jitsu group specialised in ne-waza (ground work). Kano quickly started to implement ne-waza. Kanoís group then beat the Fusen-rye group but groundwork then started to dominate judo. (Ground work isnít really a spectator sport)

Kano brought in rules to restrict ne-wazi to keep judo as a spectator sport. Maeda was impressed by the live sparring (randori) and the impressive ground work (ne waza) that judo had now acquired so he began to train with Kano.

Traditional Jui-jitsu used a lot of fine motor movements like finger locks, wrist locks eye gauges etc. Fine motor movements like this are hard to use when under the stress of combat. So judo is in a way training for combat. Once a student has trained long enough in safe combat (judo) then the self defence skills such as striking, finger locks can be brought in to combat.

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#216207 - 01/25/06 05:19 PM Re: What techniques did Kano drop? [Re: andy4]
azjudoaikijitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Mesa Az
Kosen Judo is the closest MA to BJJ, Maeda, was a top Kodokan Instructor, and was part of a colony sent to South America. ALong his travels he made is living taking on all comers in matchesm often times fighting boxers and professional "catch" wrestlers, what would today be known as shootfighters, and submission grapplers. It was from this exp he fine tuned his judo, that he taught to the Gracies.

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