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#215049 - 12/16/05 10:27 PM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: MugiaMike]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

I follow what my sensei instructs me to do in his dojo. I was in no rush to grab the sharpest thing I could find and start training with it.




Who is this you are training with?
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#215050 - 12/16/05 10:39 PM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: Zeal]
traq Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 131
Loc: SoCal
Quote:

By Zeal: You say you cut yourself doing 'tsuka ate'...




I cut myself the first time I did tsuka-ate, and I was using an iaito.
_________________________
Adrian USKO Riverside dojo/ Madison Elem. after-school

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#215051 - 12/17/05 09:16 AM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: traq]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I guess there's just no nice way to say it, I think your sensei is nuts.

My instructor uses dull blades for safety reasons, my instructors instructor uses them, my grandmaster uses them. And they all still train with bokken/Shinai as well.


Edited by Subedei (12/17/05 09:24 AM)

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#215052 - 12/17/05 11:59 AM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: Charles Mahan]
MugiaMike Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Louisville, KY U.S.
I train in Mugai Ryu with Shean Loyd Johnson 40 year member of the DNBK and a second gen. MAs trained in Okinawa. He is very respected in the Mid-West traditional Okinawan budo comunity.

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#215053 - 12/17/05 06:01 PM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: Amos Smith]
hyaku Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 85
Loc: JAPAN
Quote:

Live blades are very, very, good to learn with. If you don't want to get cut...go slow as you learn.

Toy swords = toy swordsmen.

Amos




I will go along with the fact that if you nick yourself you will have a lot more respect for a blade. But we also learn that in the kitchen preparing food.

You can use a Shinken but you will still be a "Toy Soldier" No one is going to sign you up for military service with one.

The present precepts of using swords is educational. To teach us the horrific consequences of using a weapon or/and the techniques used. You don't need a sharp weapon to train or teach these techniques especially when you do pairwork. Creative visualization and targets are good to a certain extent. But when you have a live thinking person to deal with it's a different ball game.

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#215054 - 12/18/05 01:05 AM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: hyaku]
MugiaMike Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/06/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Louisville, KY U.S.
Obviously you use a bokken in pair work, that is why they were developed durring the samuri era. We are speaking of iaido and iaijutsu, in my school we don't even use wooden bokken during pair work for fear that one may break caussing injury to one of the participants.

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#215055 - 12/18/05 01:20 PM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: Charles Mahan]
Amos Smith Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/00
Posts: 133
Loc: Wisconsin
Quote:

The idea that new students can learn iai while going so slow as to be certain of preventing nasty maiming injuries to their left hand in particular is folly. If you go that slow, you won't learn anything.





Mr. Mahan,

Respectfully, I must disagree. I wouldn't say that speed is the essence of iai and I don't think it necessary. Rather, I think precision and haragei would be the focus. Practicing slowly will develop just the right muscles in just the right way with proper correction by your sensei.

I would suggest that speed will be a result of proper technique and the elimination of unnecessary movement.

Regarding the danger of a live blade, please consider the following. If you develop muscle memory in the wrong way with a toy sword and years later begin practice with a live blade, I think the danger level is higher than starting slowly with a live blade in the first place. Its been my experience that a well polished mistake is the most difficult to change.

Amos
_________________________
Amos Smith Koshi-no-Dojo www.chicagobudokai.com

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#215056 - 12/18/05 05:13 PM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: Amos Smith]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

The idea that new students can learn iai while going so slow as to be certain of preventing nasty maiming injuries to their left hand in particular is folly. If you go that slow, you won't learn anything.




My sensei said, and I quote, "Do it slow. Get it right. Speed will come." In a dozen years since then I have never found a reason to doubt what he said.

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#215057 - 12/18/05 08:25 PM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: iaibear]
hyaku Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 85
Loc: JAPAN
Two concepts are used for drawing Japanese swords. Older Battojutsu type ryu work on speed drawing. My old Shihan would tell me to work at and break down waza in the Dojo. But for demonstrations fast is not fast enough. Iai works on a build up of speed through Jo, Ha, Kyu. Two different concepts depending on what you study. I have worked with a 3.8 with a two shaku tsuka at near seven pounds to try and build up. Now a shorter 2.8 feels like a pea stick and I could draw quicker if I wanted too. Thing is anyone can draw quick and make a mess of it. With Iai or Batto one still needs to do things with creative visualization. For example after nukitsuke the oponent would fall. The thing is it takes time to fall, where did he fall etc. All things that must be taken into consideration. A few "very" practiced people have told me that after a near lifetime's practice they still cant honestly say that every action they do comes from the hara. That's what it takes time to learn, not speed. Sharp or blunt if it's not from the hara, its not a cut!

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#215058 - 12/19/05 10:18 AM Re: Live Ken For Iai Traing Good or Bad [Re: Amos Smith]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:


Respectfully, I must disagree. I wouldn't say that speed is the essence of iai and I don't think it necessary. Rather, I think precision and haragei would be the focus. Practicing slowly will develop just the right muscles in just the right way with proper correction by your sensei.





I never suggested that speed was important. I was making a point about how ridiculously slow new students would have to go for a VERY extended period of time. This is time when they are so nervous, or at least had better be, about cutting themselves that they cannot work on basic stuff like footwork, grip, timing(which is not the same as speed at all), maai, seme, any of that stuff. I'm sure it's possible, I know that it is done, in some dojos, but it doesn't seem like an especially conducive training atmosphere. Much better to get the basics down, commit the movements to muscle memory, get good at them, and then make the transition.


Quote:

Regarding the danger of a live blade, please consider the following. If you develop muscle memory in the wrong way with a toy sword and years later begin practice with a live blade, I think the danger level is higher than starting slowly with a live blade in the first place. Its been my experience that a well polished mistake is the most difficult to change.





Keep in mind that this is the training path that I came up, so I know a little something about it. I trained with an iaito for 5 years before ever picking up a Shinken for the first time. Yes there was a transitional period. The first month scared me to death, but I got through it, and in hindsight was never in any real danger. The next 2 or 3 months was a period of learning to trust what I'd been taught and what I had been doing for several years. After that it was pretty much back to the usual training method with a few new things to work on. Namely some minor edge/saya alignment issues during noto.

Well polished mistakes are what instructors are for. For a couple of months on either side of my switch to a shinken, Ray-sensei watched my noto and nukitsuke extra close to make sure I wasn't doing anything particularly stupid. After 5 years of regular training with an iaito, most of the particularly stupid things were beaten out of me. That's the whole point of waiting for a shinken. So there won't be any "well polished" mistakes. Go look at the pictures on Swordforum to see what can happen when newbies start trying to do Iai with shinken before they are ready for them.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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