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#214911 - 12/17/05 05:14 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: MAGr]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Quote:

But correct me if I m wrong but I don't know many MAs apart from WC that actually train specifically to contract and relax. There is a very big emphasis in WC to train how the strike is delivered, there is a lot of emphasis on how the hit is supposed to feel.




Maybe as whole a Style will not, but Good fighters will start to understand this idea. Its just simple body mechanics. you are bound to figure it out eventually. Relaxing means = faster, fluid movement. Maybe you are familiar with a school of Wing Chun that focuses on how a hit feels ( I could make a joke..). I don't really think I have been told to think about how my punches feel. I am normally told to pull this part of the body or push here ect..

Maybe you are talking about Chi Sao with the idea of always relaxing? Chi Sao can have many ideas.. and forcing your self to relax is a idea.
Quote:


P.S. Although I hate all the Bruce Lee schizophrenia I have to say that the man was not just a movie star, he was a great fighter. In fact probably better fighter than actor!



I used to think the same too.. but How many fights have I seen him fight in? Really what do I know about his MA abilities? He is just a actor who studied MA. He looks good, makes good poses.. maybe a good fighter.. maybe not. NO PROOF. I have yet to see anyone fight with JKD.. so I can't comment on its ability. I haveread many JKD books and watched many JKD videos prior to starting Wing Chun. I notice that it doesn't have a LARGE portion of Wing Chun. Why?

I have read that he took the MOST EFFECTIVE PARTS.. ok thats one persons opinion. Its not my opinion because the most effective stuff I don't see in JKD. JMO

I asked my Sifu why his styles differers so much from us, and were are all the rest of our techniques. He didn't finish learning the whole style... Why not? He had the money to go back and learn the rest. His teacher (I think Wong Shun Leung) was supposed to be a good fighter.. so whats the deal? It leads me to believe that mostly Bruce Lee's martial abilities are hype. The idea of mixing styles is great, but maybe Bruce is just a normal person. Stop putting him on this pistole he didn't earn. Sure I love the movies.. but they are just movies.

In my life I have met some amazing Wing Chun Fighters from that period.. so if he was a good fighter.. is he that special? Just me rambling again..

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#214912 - 12/17/05 07:06 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: monji112000]
its_only_a_name Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 23
I gotta say I agree with monji. For years and years I've read and studied possibly everything on bruce lee. All the books, movies, mags, commentaries, documentaries, all that stuff...anyway, I have respect for the mans self discipline and achievments, but he was obsessed with creating a strong ego! He once even said, "One day my name will become a household item!" (just like coke). Fair enough that's his choice, but that statement just shows an inferiority complex, and that's why he brought MA into movies. Personally, I feel that if he didnt have this inferiority complex then he never would have contributed so much to the world. So whether it's good or bad, who knows .

When I was in grade 1, most of the lessons consisted of just punching. A LOT of emphasis is placed on how the strike is delivered, a heavy shoulder, straight spine, driving through with the elbow etc. In fact we still practice punching and continuous punching even now. It never really stops because it's so important to develop the correct shape, movement, structure and relaxation.

Does anyone else think that the movements in single sticking hands should be different? I personally dont like using the palm strike after the tan sau. It tenses up my shoulder too much.
_________________________
From Dark to Light - Phrost & Shiv-R

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#214913 - 12/17/05 07:46 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Quote:

Does anyone else think that the movements in single sticking hands should be different? I personally dont like using the palm strike after the tan sau. It tenses up my shoulder too much.




Whats wrong with a palm strike? Are you doing the strike correctly?? When you have you Tan sao and he has his fook Sao.. both should be pushing forward not down or back. They will cancel each other. The only way to hit the person (if he has a good fook sao) is to lift slitly with the elbow then push forward. Your shoulder has to tense a little, but not that much. I have been using palm and ridge hand strikes more and more..

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#214914 - 12/17/05 08:09 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: monji112000]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I didnt say he was the best fighter or the only fighter. I just dont think credit should be taken away from his abilities because he was in movies. There is no video'd proof of him winning fights but there are a lot of documented incidents in his life.
As for him taking what he saw as the most effective parts of wing chun, that is what he said as well, he never claimed I dont think that he created a superior MA. In anycase I think we agree.

Quote:

When you have you Tan sao and he has his fook Sao.. both should be pushing forward not down or back.



How would that work? Your fook sau is behind the tan sau.
Actually this new guy who came from another school and obviously different style, whenever he went from fook to tan he would move his tan forward, and I gotta say it made no sense to me and felt pretty awkward. Could you tell me why?

As for the palm, I find it a lot easier to do most things with open palm as the rest of the techniques tend to be that way. For example I would probably find it easier to collapse into a bong sau from a palm strike than a punch.

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#214915 - 12/17/05 10:23 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: MAGr]
its_only_a_name Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 23
Yeah, I find it hard to keep that constant forward focus/force on, because its all a mental thing and the concentration is hard to develop. When doing the fook sau movements its much easier to relax because your resting but still focused forward from the opponents wrist. Maybe I gotta still learn to hold my arm out with my mind rather than muscles. Any tips for keeping the shoulder in the socket and relaxed?
_________________________
From Dark to Light - Phrost & Shiv-R

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#214916 - 12/18/05 12:15 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Quote:

I didn't say he was the best fighter or the only fighter. I just dont think credit should be taken away from his abilities because he was in movies.



I just get tired of Bruce lee.. maybe its just me. I get tired of allot of things quickly.. LOL
Quote:


How would that work? Your fook sau is behind the tan sau.
Actually this new guy who came from another school and obviously different style, whenever he went from fook to tan he would move his tan forward, and I gotta say it made no sense to me and felt pretty awkward. Could you tell me why?




Maybe you do chi-sao different.. but I don't think so. Fook sao is on the outside tan sao is on the inside. When you press your elbow in and push it forward (fook soa) you create a great deal of force forward. That combined with your hand somewhat controlling the tan sao. The tan sao is going forward with the elbow aswell but.. not pressed in so extreme. The fook sao's elbow allows it to protect against the forward motion of the tan sao. They cancel each other. -----> <-----
Its very hard to describe in words.. but its very obvious when you do it correctly. If you start to feel your shoulders hurting.. your not doing something correctly.
Quote:


Yeah, I find it hard to keep that constant forward focus/force on, because its all a mental thing and the concentration is hard to develop. When doing the fook sau movements its much easier to relax because your resting but still focused forward from the opponents wrist. Maybe I gotta still learn to hold my arm out with my mind rather than muscles. Any tips for keeping the shoulder in the socket and relaxed?




I think i follow you with the hole mind thing. Yah this is my problem as well. You have to teach yourself to do less. All you are doing is pushing with your elbow forward. Thats really it. If the other person was to let go quickly you should move forward NEVER ANYWERE ELSE. I realized this was one of the purposes of the First form. Learning to do 1 thing and nothing else. For example first part you do allot of fook sao pushing. Nothing should move but your hand being pushed by your elbow. Your body should not move... this is so hard. Some people do the form with too much force.. (JMO) Force is good .. but control is very important too. If for example you are using too much force and to stop being square in your shoulders.. you are using too much force.
These are all from my experience I don't want to sound like I am forcing ideas on you. Try them out maybe you will have another idea. Everyone has a different way of getting to the same place. Just make sure you really get to the goal.



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#214917 - 12/18/05 06:57 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: monji112000]
its_only_a_name Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 23
This is just like being in class this discussion, only its net based lol
I've only been doing Wing Chun for about 3-4months now. So Im still trying to understand just how you move from the elbow. Everytime Im practicing the form, the fook sau and tau sau movements, my instructor comes and holds my wrist to feel if Im doing it right. And he's constantly telling me to just think of the shoulder joint rotating, as opposed to trying to push from the wrist. I find it hard to conceptualise it. Sometimes I can do it, but my shoulder ligament hurts as it rotates. My instructor tells me this is normal for everyone in their early stages and slowly it will fall into place naturally. Are there any stretches I can do for those tendons or ligaments or whatever they are in my shoulder?
_________________________
From Dark to Light - Phrost & Shiv-R

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#214918 - 12/18/05 11:16 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Quote:

This is just like being in class this discussion, only its net based lol
I've only been doing Wing Chun for about 3-4months now. So Im still trying to understand just how you move from the elbow. Every time Im practicing the form, the fook sau and tau sau movements, my instructor comes and holds my wrist to feel if Im doing it right. And he's constantly telling me to just think of the shoulder joint rotating, as opposed to trying to push from the wrist. I find it hard to conceptualize it. Sometimes I can do it, but my shoulder ligament hurts as it rotates. My instructor tells me this is normal for everyone in their early stages and slowly it will fall into place naturally. Are there any stretches I can do for those tendons or ligaments or whatever they are in my shoulder?




I have always had some slight tightness(NEVER PAIN) when I do this .. but thats because I have my elbow so far in that I can't move it anymore inward. I have found that this is "my" ideal position. Don't do anything that hurts.. its your body telling you that somethings wrong.

I have some stretches for that area some people have shown me.. but its impossible to explain them here.. sorry go to the lib. I am sure you can find allot of good stuff.

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#214919 - 12/18/05 09:40 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
In the beginning I found that a lot of techniques in wing chun feel awkward but that should as your instructor said straighten itself out as your body becomes used to it.

Try this: get a friend to apply pressure towards your body on your elbow when you extend the fook sau in the first form, your wrist should be completely relaxed and only use your elbow.

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#214920 - 12/20/05 11:36 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
Natron Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 56
Loc: Illinois, USA
Quote:

One of the instructors explained to me that when he holds his arm out in front of him, he doesnt used muscluar tension to hold it there...I always thought you move because blood fills your muscles causing movement...He told me that first he relaxes his body, just lets go of all tensions. Then he focuses on a certain point in front of him and his hand moving to that point and it happens. But soon as the focus is dropped, the hand drops because it isnt held by muscle.





1) Your muscles aren't filled with blood. They're filled with muscles cells, believe it or not.

2) You can't move your appendages without using muscles. Period.

At the risk of being a smart a**, maybe less astral projection and more biology.

Best of luck on your journey.

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