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#214901 - 12/15/05 07:41 AM Wing Chun
its_only_a_name Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 23
Hey guys, im new to this site. Im currently doing my diploma in wing chun coaching at Master Jim Fung's International Wing Chun Academy. I've done 13 years of Shaolin Kung Fu (animal styles and weapons) prior to this. Im finding now that the basic principle of relaxation and forward focus is the key to being successful in any martial art. Just wondering if anyone can comment on this or is anyone else studying wing chun or has studied. Thanks.
_________________________
From Dark to Light - Phrost & Shiv-R

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#214902 - 12/15/05 10:43 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

Just wondering if anyone can comment on this or is anyone else studying wing chun or has studied.




Excuse me, but I don't really understand your question. . What do you want me to comment on? If it's Wing Chun, I rather not do any negative comment or I may have a few people running me over.

Quote:

basic principle of relaxation and forward focus is the key to being successful in any martial art.



I don't know, I think I agree with you there. But personally, I'm not a master at relaxation.

-Taison out
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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#214903 - 12/16/05 05:32 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: Taison]
its_only_a_name Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 23
Haha, thats ok. My question is has anyone else used these principles in their art? If so how effective have they found them to be?(The principles of relaxation and forward focus that is).
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From Dark to Light - Phrost & Shiv-R

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#214904 - 12/16/05 07:26 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
I think you should start by expaining EXACTLY what you mean by relaxation and forward focus, as the interpretation I have from the phrase is common to pretty much all martial arts and boxing too. In the case of punching, that would be keeping your arm relaxed and driving through your target (in the forward direction ). which is generally prescribed in all fighting arts.

Ayub
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#214905 - 12/16/05 08:44 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I don't think it's as complex and in-depth a question as people are making out. Hey, maybe I'm just a simple guy!

Relaxation - Yes.

Forward Focus - Only if the opponent is in front of you.
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#214906 - 12/16/05 08:52 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I dont mean to be rude but if you have done 13 years of kung fu you should have realized that a long time ago.
I agree that relaxation is key to any martial art, or any sport for that matter. Any effective physical movement in any sport has to be performed in a relaxed manner with tention at the right time in the right place, that is how you become fluid and powerful.
As for the forward focus, it depends. I agree with JohnL, sometimes you have to give forward focus, but if you are meeting force, I would not recomend a 'head on' strategy, rather circular focus. Sometimes you have to use angles, sometimes you have to absord and sometimes you have to move forward.
I think what you mean by forward focus is the root or the stance if you like. I agree that the root should not be liable to destabilization and therefore balance should be maintained, opposed to the force being given.

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#214907 - 12/16/05 10:21 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: MAGr]
its_only_a_name Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 23
Lol, Im not offended. What I've discovered just recently, is that when I apply the roots of wing chun to any other form I practice whether it be choy li fut, animal styles, boxing, muay thai or even just basic exercise and movement, is that I become more perceptive.

One of the instructors explained to me that when he holds his arm out in front of him, he doesnt used muscluar tension to hold it there. So I asked what he means. I always thought you move because blood fills your muscles causing movement. But I touched his shoulder, bicep, chest and back and the muscles werent tense. I was surprised. He told me that first he relaxes his body, just lets go of all tensions. Then he focuses on a certain point in front of him and his hand moving to that point and it happens. But soon as the focus is dropped, the hand drops because it isnt held by muscle.

So now when I go back to practice my previous stuff, I apply this same principle and find that the techniques are 10 times more powerful, and I dont feel like a tense meathead. I feel this is why bruce lee did so well in every other art he studied. Im not saying wing chun is the best art, but definitely one of the most scientific approaches to fighting that helps lead us beyond it.

Feel free to comment. Thnx
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#214908 - 12/16/05 12:59 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: its_only_a_name]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Quote:

One of the instructors explained to me that when he holds his arm out in front of him, he doesnt used muscluar tension to hold it there. So I asked what he means. I always thought you move because blood fills your muscles causing movement. But I touched his shoulder, bicep, chest and back and the muscles werent tense. I was surprised. He told me that first he relaxes his body, just lets go of all tensions. Then he focuses on a certain point in front of him and his hand moving to that point and it happens. But soon as the focus is dropped, the hand drops because it isnt held by muscle.




Hmm Sounds like Some Chi Kung "magic".. Relaxing is in every physical art. You move smooth and fast if you relax as much as possible.. but you MUST TENSE MUSCLES in order to pull or push your limbs. Everyone knows this idea, but most can't do it.



Quote:


So now when I go back to practice my previous stuff, I apply this same principle and find that the techniques are 10 times more powerful, and I dont feel like a tense meathead. I feel this is why bruce lee did so well in every other art he studied. Im not saying wing chun is the best art, but definitely one of the most scientific approaches to fighting that helps lead us beyond it.




Bruce Lee = Movie star.


How much tension do you really have? I have practiced with people who come from years of Martial Arts.. that are so tense even when they are just standing in place..

Wing Chun is just a name, don't read too much into it. Every Martial Art uses science, don't be fooled by the propaganda. The question is do you really know how and why your technique(ie relaxing) works and Can you use it? Science is a method.. you can apply it to anything. If you can prove you theory.. then you are doing ok.

JMO

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#214909 - 12/17/05 02:18 AM Re: Wing Chun [Re: monji112000]
its_only_a_name Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 23
Certain things take time. I am no master so I will say yes, the level of tension I carry is probably reasonably high.

Once I was doing astral projection. The method I was using for it involved visualisation and feeling your body with awareness of sensations. I was visualising climbing a ladder and I felt like I was lifting out of my body - I thought it was actually working. But when I opened my eyes, my arms were out in front of me performing the motion of climbing a ladder and suddenly I could feel the muscluar tension. From this I understand what is meant by controlling your body with your mind. However, this is much harder to do when standing up practicing the sil num tau form. And to be able to use this in a fight take years of practice to become good, but to master it takes a lifetime.

Relaxation works because no energy is absorbed by tensing the muscles. All the energy delivered into strikes moves 'through' the target. If it is possible to become 100% relaxed whilst moving, then 100% of your energy can be delivered 'through' the target. If you punch a well structured tree nothing will happen except a sore fist and the bounce-back effect. Thats because the tree isn't tense, it is just well structured and can absorb your force. But if you were to hit the tree with a stronger structure, say a demolition ball, then the trees structure would collapse. Both the tree and the demolition ball have structure, however the ball has a stronger structure. What we're taught to do in WC is move our bodies as one unit to maintain the strongest possible structure behind our hits. And to keep the structure strong, all the parts must be relaxed in their joints. This sounds much easier than it is to do.

When I apply this to choy li fut especially, the destruction that can be caused is phenomenal. It could completely destroy wing chun. And I'm sure if you can apply this method to ANY other art, then the power generation would be much higher. I emphasise choy li fut the most because it is swinging arms. Just like swinging an iron ball on a chain, similar to the demolition ball. It destroys everything. Obviously other principles can counter things, but this is the basic idea.

On another note, thanks for the input and always feel free to write whatever you want. Your forcing me to understand these things and I'm learning a lot just by writing about them, so once again, thanks.
_________________________
From Dark to Light - Phrost & Shiv-R

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#214910 - 12/17/05 01:43 PM Re: Wing Chun [Re: monji112000]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
To be fair, I have to say that although in all martial arts to perform well and to get power and fluidity you need relaxation. But correct me if I m wrong but I dont know many MAs appart from WC that actually train specifically to contract and relax. There is a very big emphasis in WC to train how the strike is delivered, there is a lot of emphasis on how the hit is supposed to feel.
From what I know, an art like shotokan doesnt do this. Of course the better you become the more relaxed you are anyway and the more aware you are about how things should feel in order to deliver maximum power/ minimum commitment but they dont really train for it. (Do they?)

Yes every art uses science, but not every art applies all aspects into drills, it just so happens that WC drills you relly hard in this area.
My two yen.

P.S. Although I hate all the Bruce Lee schizophrenia I have to say that the man was not just a movie star, he was a great fighter. In fact probably better fighter than actor!

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