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#214882 - 12/15/05 05:59 AM Goju's ultimate kata?
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Since I couldn't get the bumped old post to work.....
I've been interseted in Suparempi for a while. I was going to take the time to learn it this year along with naihanchi(one at a time),but life had other plans,lol.
I'm interested in hearing from others who know this kata. Is it the ultimate goju kata? Does it have everything in it from the other kata,etc..
Feel free to include bunkai(if you can).
Also it was taught to Higaonna by Ryu Ryu Ko(sp?),does anyone know the history of the kata before that?

*I've got to get with Mr.Simmons about this kata*
*smacks self in the head*


Edited by BrianS (12/15/05 06:03 AM)

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#214883 - 12/15/05 09:48 AM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Brian, I was never formally taught the kata...so I only have acedemic info to give you a few directions to look, as oppossed to first hand knowledge in the study of it.

first, it's always good to be aware of the different permeutations of it's name (for searching) the kata is written a few different ways:

Suparempi
Suparinpei <-most common spelling

(some use this name interchangably, simple stating it's the Chinese name for the kata - while some evidence suggests it may be an entirely different kata. I believe Victor has done some research on this.)
Peichurrin
Peichurin
Pechurin

and as always, it's also good to be aware of the versions across styles that are commonly practiced. comparison study often generates more questions, but sometimes add insight.

There is much more info on this... with the different spellings I gave, it may make it easier for you to search. I think you may have a hard time finding reliable info on pre-Liu Liu Ko (even Higashionna's teachers real name is disputed).

wish I could give more solid info. lots of info and opinions are out there...it's just a matter of putting it all together and forming your own opinion - I haven't done this to the extent others have here.

good luck, post as you find stuff out...
-Ed

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#214884 - 12/15/05 09:48 AM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

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#214885 - 12/15/05 09:53 AM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I would like to link to the old post on the topic (just to credit Mr. Smith for his post), but am going to quote in order to keep others from adding to the dead thread.

Quote (dated 02/03/05):

Suparinpei is a very interesting form.

Perhaps the entire summation of Goju studies. I recall reading how Chinnen Sensei felt it should be the 2nd kata studied, after Sanchin. He did not feel it was the most complex kata in Goju, just the longest. In that I concur, feeling that say Seisan, Seipai and Kurunfua are more complex and subtle. But in and of itself Suparinpei is a great form.

The form is long (the name originally referred to the number 108, an important concept in Chinese MA's), but not necessarily impossible, as most of the sections are performed multiple times (as in 4 directions), so when you get a series, you shift and do it again and again.

I think you will find it useful and valuable to your study, a complement to the other kata you've been studying.

Good luck,

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#214886 - 12/15/05 10:13 AM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: BrianS]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
BrianS

Please excuse my spelling errors

The story goes that there was once a set of 3 interelated kata, Suparinpei, Pechrium, and an unnamed "lost" kata.

Some folks claim that Pechruim IS suparinpei with a directional change.

Some folks claim that that in effect-it is Suaparinpei 1-2-3, with only one of the set being taught.

Others that the current suparinpei kinda "absorbed" the other two.

I have even heard that suparinpei was the creation of Gen. Yeuh Fei.

There is also speculation that a version of suparinpei is also a "lost" kata of the Uechi-ryu system, that may have been practiced "back in the day" but lost over the years.

You can find versions of suparinpei in many forms of Chinese martial arts.


Edited by cxt (12/15/05 11:55 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#214887 - 12/15/05 10:55 AM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: cxt]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
cxt, I've heard the same about the UechiRyu 'lost kata'...is that the one also referred to as "Fuzhou Suparinpei" ?

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#214888 - 12/15/05 11:54 AM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

Ed

Thats the way I hear it.

There certainly is a suparinpei that is practiced in Fuzhou.

And the Uechi folks have made a number of trips to china for research.

Weither or not it is exactly the same one that "may' MAY have been uesd back in the day is amyones guess.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#214889 - 12/15/05 04:36 PM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: BrianS]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Pechurin is the Chinese name for Suparinpei. It means 108 hands is made up as 3X36, 36 from sanseru and 3 meaning past present and future. It is said that there are 3 versions jo chu and dai. The current Goju version is the jo version. Another theorie is that it was once 3 seperate kata and that it was merged as one kata.
It is clear that the number 3 has special meaning here.
108 also has special meaning in Buddism(108 evil passions if men .... I think Butterflypalm can tell a lot more about it)
Many believe that Higashiaonna sensei brought the kata from China but I think he brought a version and that there were more known in the past. Choki Motobu writes in his book Watashi no Karate-jutsu (My art of karate, translated by P Mccarthy) that pechurrin is among the more popular kata and was already known during the old RyuKyu kingdom (=before Higashiaonna returned from China). Some say that Seisho Aragaki already teached this kata(=first teacher of Higashiaonna). The kata is inherent to several Fuzhou styles Dragon boxing/Tiger boxing/Monk fist (ahrat) boxing. Some say that Goju is more descendant from monk fist boxing and Uechi from tiger boxing.
Uechi and Higashiaonna had more or less same curriculum (at least sanchin/sanseru/sesan, apperently only Miyagi was thaught the other Goju kata or these came from another source than Higashiaonna) THis could also add to the myth of the lost pechurin kata of Uechi-ryu.
The kata features fighting with 2 hands simultaniously in forward direction and open hand techniques. The shito-ryu version even uses more open hand techniques (in stead of the keiko-ken in shiko-dachi).
It is a nice and long kata with a lot of rhytm changes. Not easy to learn to beginners as it combines hard and soft.
As ultimate kata I would chose Kururunfa or Sepai.

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#214890 - 12/15/05 05:17 PM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'd say Suparempi and Seipa as fighting katas and Kuraunfa and Seisanru for more dramatic bodying shifting movements.

I believe its written that Seisan is the oldest Te kata.
I've always wondered my the Bushi Matsumra older version of Seisan is so different then Ryu-Ryu Ko's. Is this a northern and southern version, I think even the foot pattern is vastly different. Could Seisan be the ultimate kata, its one of my favorite.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#214891 - 12/15/05 06:03 PM Re: Goju's ultimate kata? [Re: BrianS]
srv Offline
The OTHER forum Doctor

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 139
Loc: SA, Australia
Brian, I have a fantastic DVD of Higaonna doing Goju-Ryu katas and it has suparempi on it followed by him demonstrating some bunkai from the kata. I don't know the kata myself but that is pretty impressive to watch. If you want to learn it, it may be worthwhile getting a hold of that and watch it. I'll try and find the details of the dvd for you. It also has all the other goju katas with bunkai as well.

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