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#214638 - 12/14/05 08:57 AM Bad Budo and McDojos
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
(Made you look! )

I'm not for it, but how about a discussion on whether or not we should have a subforum for 'Bad Budo'. We can't help ourselves, so why not have a subsection?

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#214639 - 12/14/05 09:12 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

I AM ALL FOR IT!!!!!!!!

eh.......what are we talking about?
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#214640 - 12/14/05 09:39 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
The problem is, one person's 'bad budo' is what another calls 'home'.

good/bad ...thats very dualistic of you harlan

I propose to leave the bunkbusting to the experts (bullshido) and reference when issues of MA garbage and rediculous claims comes up. other than that, the way to end conversations really quick with bad budoists or bad budo topics is to either: ignore them, sabotage the thread with humor, or redirect to the appropriate forum.

As launcher of the "you might be in a McDojo if..." thread, I'd be a hipocrite to say I don't enjoy a good super soke story, ki-ball heroics and plaid-belts with matching headbands. but as the issue came up when things hit close to home for some people here...what some called 'bad', others called 'family'. talk about bad budo - that got a little ugly and uncomfortable even though each were stating what they honestly believed and didn't have an agenda to smear.

we shouldn't categorize 'good vs bad' ...since the terms themselves are sometimes the issue. making such a category would itself be 'bad budo'.

just my 'bad' opinion.

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#214641 - 12/14/05 09:57 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
But...we do it anyway?

Very Victorian...to pretend. These topics/threads do slip in...so why not have a place for them? What would be the issues related to having this forum?


Edited by harlan (12/14/05 10:01 AM)

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#214642 - 12/14/05 10:13 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
One more place to moderate. And that place would be worse than any other forum.

Are you volunteering?

I agree with Ed and what has been said before, bullshido is for bad budo, not here. They come up, yes, but not frequently enough to require their own forum. And if that ever does happen, I might have to rethink my membership here. I'm not trying to expose others, just to learn and share thoughts, ideas.

Just my view on it.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#214643 - 12/14/05 10:30 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
It's not pretending. heres the difference: if I post stating my opinion that something is 'bad budo'...then it represents just that: a single opinion.

move that same post to a forum section called 'bad budo' and the debate is over...it's already catagorized as such. the people perhaps defending it have an uphill battle.

Imagine if Scotties visit to UK thread was determined to be filed in 'bad budo' as oppossed to debating the issue on neutral ground.

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#214644 - 12/14/05 10:46 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well a thread derailed is different than a thread that starts out as 'hey...let's discuss this guy' or 'what do you think about this'?

So, Joel advocates leaving threads that skirt this topic within their forums, and that there will be some measure of internal control/crowd pressure within that subgroup of folks that will naturally moderate the thread. I can see this working with the Zen or Aikido area...but not elsewhere.

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#214645 - 12/14/05 11:11 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
McZen temple, I like that.

It's the moderators' jobs to moderate topics, not the members, hence the title. If a topic/thread is off-topic then it will be dealt with, either by locking/deletion or guidance of the thread. Different mods have different levels of what is acceptable, so there will be some variance in what is left open or locked.

What is so different about the zen and aikido forums that make them so capable of controlling themselves and the rest of us so incapable of doing so?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#214646 - 12/14/05 11:17 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Why do you fall into the illusion of Duality, Grasshoppa?

Back on track: I disagree that it is only the job of the moderators to moderate. Each of us affects the course of the threads we post in...some of us are deliberate in the way we post.

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#214647 - 12/14/05 11:23 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Just warning of the possible problems due to mis-categorization which in itself could cause bad budo.

scenario: someone creates a thread "hey look at this mcdojo!".
- the thread is then refiled into the 'bad budo' corner.

- a debate over whether or not the place in question is the fine line of being money centric for greed or marketing conscience for survivability.

- good points are made, proof given of it not being a stereotype, and BTW a mod has a friend that goes there and likes it.

what happens to the thread now? will it be properly catergorized or forever (perhaps) unfairly labeled bad budo?

who would maintain such gray areas? the mods? what if they themselves are biased in particular cases...

...just entering in some characteristicly pain-in-the-arse thoughts on the topic.

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#214648 - 12/14/05 11:37 AM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Can be done here..can't be done here. Is that not duality? I don't understand yor concept of duality and it really doesn't matter here.

I didn't mean that it was only the moderators' jobs to moderate threads. But we are here to keep things on track if they do veer. We are the last resort or the pre-emptive strike, or both.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#214649 - 12/14/05 12:14 PM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
...the Final Fu? so to speak...

I think the concept is valid harlan, and I know the value for putting posts in their place. basically you want the in-depth, thought provoking, on topic subjects to be over here on your left...and the trash talk, gossip, small arguments to all be neatly tucked away in a filing cabinet we don't view too often..maybe marked as 'tax returns' or something. lol

I'd like that too...but how can I ever expect someone would organize things the same way I would?

George Carlan once talked about the concept of inventing a flashlight that will only shine on things worth looking at....then dropped the idea as being 'a little too idealistic'.

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#214650 - 12/14/05 12:28 PM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I agree with Ed and Joel. These discussions do not really come up often enough to warrant their own forum, IMO.

I'm certainly not trying to out-Bullshido Bullshido, in any case. But I think that it's not a bad idea to keep people on their toes about some of the nefarious MA stuff going on out there.

A lot of beginners have a "Mr. Miyagi" view of their instructors, which is sadly not always the case.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#214651 - 12/14/05 12:42 PM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Hmmm...the mods have spoken.

Thanks for the feedback.

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#214652 - 12/14/05 01:43 PM Re: Bad Budo and McDojos [Re: harlan]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
There is a section for "bad budo" on ebudo. The thing is you can't start a new thread in the bad budo section; it has to be moved there by admin. I don't think we should have a section dedicated to just that. It's one thing to have discussions about frauds and fakes in various sections of the forum but dedicating a section to it kind of looks like witch hunting. Although the bad budo section at ebudo works well i don't think it would fit in too well here. Mostly because there are many systems that most of us can't agree on in terms of validity.

For the record i don't think we should be adding any new sections but rather feel like we should be trimming some fat from the forum.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#214653 - 12/14/05 01:47 PM Trimming the fat [Re: laf7773]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well, since members probably can't agree on Budo, I'm guessing that 'trimming the fat' might not be an option. One person's fat might be someone else's zen.

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#214654 - 12/14/05 01:57 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
How about consolidation.

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#214655 - 12/14/05 01:59 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Where would you start?

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#214656 - 12/14/05 02:10 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

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#214657 - 12/14/05 02:12 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
  • Site Suggestions and Forum Help combined
  • Martial Arts Books and Book Talk combined
  • Washin School archived (not used)
  • Daito Ryu archived (not used)
  • Breathing and Breath Control archived or combined with another forum
  • Stretching, Strengthening, and Body Mechanics combined to General Fitness


Just some suggestions
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#214658 - 12/14/05 02:15 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Those seem unobjectionable to me...but I don't care about any of them. I suspect that Daito Ryu could have a future, but since I suspect most of those folks just breeze through once a year and never post, agree with archiving it.

Should we have a poll on it?

Then there is the thread Ed points to. What about those?


Edited by harlan (12/14/05 02:16 PM)

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#214659 - 12/14/05 04:42 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: JoelM]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Site Suggestions and Forum Help combined
Martial Arts Books and Book Talk combined

Washin School archived (not used)

Daito Ryu archived (not used)

Breathing and Breath Control archived or combined with another forum

Stretching, Strengthening, and Body Mechanics combined to General Fitness




I agree totally with Joel. My vote.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#214660 - 12/14/05 06:28 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: JoelM]
DullBlade42 Offline
Uber-Cool Shindig Host

Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 1277
Loc: Long York, New Island
That does sound like a mighty fine idea.

I second!
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I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it. -Mitch Hedberg

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#214661 - 12/14/05 08:45 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: DullBlade42]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
I'm with Joel, Dull, and Biscuits. Make that three.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#214662 - 12/14/05 09:06 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: RazorFoot]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You guys can't count. Razor makes four, and I make five.


Edited by harlan (12/14/05 09:07 PM)

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#214663 - 12/14/05 10:16 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: harlan]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Three in support of Joel's idea. And now your are the fourth.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#214664 - 12/14/05 10:58 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: RazorFoot]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Conditioning
... Health & Nutrition
... Strengthening
... Stretching
... Breathing & Breath Control

Martial Arts Media
... Martial Arts Books
... Martial Arts Films
... Book Talk

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#214665 - 12/14/05 11:07 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Works for me as well, Ed. But maybe instead of Conditioning put "General Fitness and Nutrition" ?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#214666 - 12/14/05 11:23 PM Re: Trimming the fat [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that works.

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#214667 - 12/15/05 12:41 AM Ground Control to Major Tom [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Conditioning
... Health & Nutrition
... Strengthening
... Stretching
... Breathing & Breath Control

Martial Arts Media
... Martial Arts Books
... Martial Arts Films
... Book Talk




I've been watching you guys ... a lot of "green" on this board ... or at least I see green for the background I chose.

Am I getting this correct that you are wishing to get rid of some forums and combine them into one or more? That instead of Strengthening being its own entity that it would be combined with Nutrition, Breathing, Stretching and Body Mechanics?

This may or may not be a good idea but definitely something workable, though I rarely visit any of the others on this list or some not at all. What would happen with the Moderators? It has been my belief that Moderators are chosen due to their knowledge in that particular area ... on top of making sure things don't get out of hand. A Moderator may only be proficient in a few areas that you combine but may be out of their league in others ... that would then defeat the point. Plus by combining you may need further Moderators to pick up the extra traffic.

I'm wondering what kind of criteria would be used to decide to put forums together and not keeping as their own? Is it because of limited people visiting those forums? From what I can see there are many that don't get visited often that include Judo/Jujitsu, Daito Ryu, Martial Arts Tales & Stories, Jeet Kune Do, Krav Maga, Karate, Kung Fu/Chinese Art, BJJ/MMA and the list goes on. However you don't want to combine any of these as they are their own entity.

The biggest forums used are Martial Art Talk (general info as well as a gathering ground for everybody), Strengthening, TKD (though seems too full of youngins), and Self Defense/Street Combat.

The thing with forums is you can't please everybody but you try to make the best of things with what you have so people who are into Hapkido go to the Taekwondo or Martial Arts Talk forums. Boxing goes with MMA. And so on. Combining some sections means you will have to comb through many of the threads to get to what you are actually after. In my case in Strengthening which I call more home, I'd have to comb through breathing and stretching and body mechanics and nutrition to get to what I'm looking for or what I can help others with. The same would go for others.

I'm probably over stepping my boundaries ... sorry ... not my intention. Just another voice in the wind ... my two cents. Of course we would adapt if necessary ... just what is necessary?

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#214668 - 12/15/05 12:57 AM Re: Ground Control to Major Tom [Re: Dereck]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
You're not overstepping your bounds at all, Dereck. To tell you the truth those forums are the only ones I have my doubt on consolidating because they are so specific. None of this is a guarantee anyways, just a little brainstorming. Or at least a slight drizzle.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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