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#214154 - 12/12/05 09:38 PM Kokyu vs. Ki
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Hello-

I was wondering if anyone out there could make a distinction between kokyu and ki. I know there definitions, but could anyone be kind enough to elaborate a bit.

Eyrie, in another thread, alluded to the fact that ki and kokyu are definable and can be cultivated. He also alluded to talking with Mike Sigman, who seems to have some working knowledge in the subject, but to his discredit on the recent threads that I've seen him contribute to, he sort of goads everyone else without really contributing much to the discussion (he probably is a great uke ).

Sorry if it looks like I'm taking a stab at anyone, that's not my intention. I just participated in a wonderful seminar, where sensei explicitly said that kokyu and ki are different, but I didn't seize the opportunity to have him elaborate. That's why I am asking all of you.

Arigato-

Joe

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#214155 - 12/13/05 12:37 AM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: Joe Jutsu]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Tsk tsk.... that would've been the first thing to ask!

With all due respect to Mike, the reason he goads is to "force" people to ask the right questions. If you can demonstrate some level of understanding of what he is trying to talk about, then he will contribute something toward your understanding (at the level of understanding that you are at).

There is no point in him mentioning a whole bunch of stuff that would only serve to confuse. (I sometimes have to catch myself telling my students too much in case I confuse the hell out of them. Also, their asking me questions indicates the level of understanding that they are at, so I can either add to it, or steer them along an extended line of thinking).

IME, I've found Mike to be extremely knowledgeable and helpful. So let's just keep to the topic at hand.... kokyu and ki.

From what I understand, these 2 are separate but interrelated things, and together they provide the essence of martial power.

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#214156 - 12/14/05 12:01 AM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: eyrie]
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
So, then how would you define kokyunage?

And what exercises do you believe to develop kokyu, as opposed to ki development exercises?

Thanks,
-Joe

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#214157 - 12/14/05 12:19 AM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: Joe Jutsu]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Is kokyunage merely a "breath" throw? Or there other factors involved? Particularly with how you throw, and specifically how you use the ground force path internally? I'm not talking "no-touch" throws. How do you do kokyunage?

I have already attempted to describe these in the other thread.

What do you think the "warm up" exercises, e.g. fune-kogi undo, sayu-undo, chinkon-kishin, etc. etc. "do"? Which ones are ki development ones primarily, and which ones kokyu, and which are both?

What are you doing (i.e. training/developing) when you perform these exercises??

And how are these exercises different in substance to the "techniques" proper?

Just so we can establish if you and I are on the same page.

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#214158 - 12/14/05 06:11 PM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: eyrie]
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Eyrie-

-Kokyunage is not merely a breath throw. Of course the literal translation of kokyunage is ďbreath power throw,Ē but it has been explained to me that kokyunage should be thought of as a timing throw. Extending breath and extending ki are not the same thing (obviously). Nothing specific is done with the breath, as the throws of have been taught to me. You as how I do the throws? Not very well lol!;) Kokyunage is an immense classification of throws in my style. But I can say that for all of them, rhythm and a strong emphasis on down, up, down (for most) in addition to harmonizing with (Iím going to say it) the universe, in this case specifically with gravity. As for using the ground-force internally, Iíve never had the question put in so many words. Could you explain how you do, and maybe I will have a better idea of the question?

I donít know if I implied that funekogi, sayundo etc. were merely ďwarm upĒ exercises. They all can be looked at as ki development exercises, but again its never been explained to me in the dojo that we are developing kokyu.

Even in kokyudosa, the emphasis is definitely on ki development. Iíve never heard kokyu mentioned.

Again, my working definition of kokyu is timing, so I would say that the exercise set that probably best develops kokyu in the style that I train in is oneness rhythm taiso, or perhaps working through the kumi waza as training tools in and of themselves.

Could you please describe chinkon-kishin, because I am not familiar with this exercise?

As to your question about how these exercise differ in substance, can you be more specific? Physically or externally, the applications of hitori waza change from application to application, but the ki should be the same I would think. Does that answer your question?

Thanks for the response,

Joe

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#214159 - 12/14/05 06:37 PM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: Joe Jutsu]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I've seen so many things described as kokyunage that I came to the conclusion that if a throw doesn't have another name, it's either kokyunage or iriminage, depending on whether you entered....

Chris

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#214160 - 12/14/05 06:49 PM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: Joe Jutsu]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


-Kokyunage is not merely a breath throw. Of course the literal translation of kokyunage is ďbreath power throw,Ē but it has been explained to me that kokyunage should be thought of as a timing throw. Extending breath and extending ki are not the same thing (obviously). Nothing specific is done with the breath, as the throws of have been taught to me. You as how I do the throws? Not very well lol!;) Kokyunage is an immense classification of throws in my style. But I can say that for all of them, rhythm and a strong emphasis on down, up, down (for most) in addition to harmonizing with (Iím going to say it) the universe, in this case specifically with gravity. As for using the ground-force internally, Iíve never had the question put in so many words. Could you explain how you do, and maybe I will have a better idea of the question?





Irrespective of the immense classifications, I would suggest that they are all done in pretty much the same way. It also has less to do with the breath-timing, per se, and more with how one does, say fune-kogi.... (see below).

Quote:


I donít know if I implied that funekogi, sayundo etc. were merely ďwarm upĒ exercises. They all can be looked at as ki development exercises, but again its never been explained to me in the dojo that we are developing kokyu.





I was only asking the question, not suggesting it was implied in your response. My research leads me to believe these are "basic" kokyu development exercises. Learning to use the ground force is a large part of it. But it also involves "pressurizing" the force (with or without) using the breath and internally directing the vector forces thru the "command" and "control" centers.

Quote:


Even in kokyudosa, the emphasis is definitely on ki development. Iíve never heard kokyu mentioned.





Kokyu-dosa is both a ki and kokyu development exercise. Probably the most important one too.

Quote:


Again, my working definition of kokyu is timing, so I would say that the exercise set that probably best develops kokyu in the style that I train in is oneness rhythm taiso, or perhaps working through the kumi waza as training tools in and of themselves.





You're (Tohei's) Ki aikido, right? What "ki" exercises did Tohei emphasize that you have found to relate to aikido waza? Just curious.

Quote:


Could you please describe chinkon-kishin, because I am not familiar with this exercise?





It's a series of exercises. See Dan Penrod's article:
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/articles/chinkon.htm

The "mystical" esoteric explanations of the exercises are somewhat misleading. If you look at the "spirit" of the exercises themselves, it is quite obvious (to me at least!) what is being trained here.

Quote:


As to your question about how these exercise differ in substance, can you be more specific? Physically or externally, the applications of hitori waza change from application to application, but the ki should be the same I would think. Does that answer your question?





No, I'm talking about the internals and how it is done "internally".

Just so we're clear, I'm not looking at external appplication of technique, but rather the internal training aspects as they relate to the "techniques" themselves.

If that makes any sense?

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#214161 - 12/19/05 12:14 AM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Dan Harden's response. Crossed-posted from aikiweb for reference:

Quote:


Timing has nothing to do with it, and the control of their postural integrity does not require specific breathing on your part either. Though there are things you can do in that regard that will enhance things .

The single most important thing in my opinion is that your body can connect with the ground and then with whatever you are connecting with in them..and with nothing stiffening or inhibiting the flow in between. Its like making a river or what we call "a current" in you-that gets transfered to them. It is hard to explain. Well it can be explained but you really have to feel it to learn it.

At a certain point you should be able to feel the stiffness in them and help them to make it go away.

Anyway, timing is...well timing. Great stuff for fighting-but not required as a piece of the puzzle here.

The Seagal single breath through multiple movements for fluidity I discount as well. You should be able to breath naturally through movement and connection and then to breath ..well differently- by choice for certain things
cheers
Dan

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=125720#post125720




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#214162 - 12/29/05 07:43 PM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: eyrie]
Joe Jutsu Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
Hmmm.... thanks for all the food for thought eyrie. I only have time to try to address a few things right now though. First, a question: Can you please elaborate on "Ground force" because I have not come across this specific phrase in my aikido practice?

I do practice Tohei's Ki Aikido, and though I've never taken a class from Tohei sensei, I would hypothesize that he would say that all of the Ki Development and hitori waza (aiki taiso) exercises relate to aikido waza. Specifically I would argue that ikkyo, tenkan, funekogi, udefuri & udefuri choyaku are hitori waza that are quickly connected to aikido waza. From Tohei's Oneness Rhythm Exercise, which is being heavily emphasized these days, the very first exercise where the arms are extended out at shoulder height and drop down to the thighs as you drop one point, keep a pause (seishi would be a more correct way of saying that, then the arms come up back to shoulder heigth. Repeat ad nauseum
This movement is a basic "classic kokyunage" movement, and the ability to move the whole body down, with gravity as a cohesive unit centered on one point is crucial to all ki aikido techniques, anyway.

And thanks for the link to the site that explained chinkin koshin. Interesting stuff.

That's all I got for now.

Joe

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#214163 - 01/04/06 08:33 PM Re: Kokyu vs. Ki [Re: Joe Jutsu]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Joe,

Sorry for not replying earlier. Been on vacation. Too much booze and food... and not enough training.

Google for "ground reaction force" and see what comes up.

AFAIK, "using the ground" is never spoken in so many words in aikido, but it most certainly uses it. Fune-kogi undo is the basis for it (i.e. using the GRF, and the source of power for all kokyu techniques). Ikkyo is merely manisfestation of the GRF in the whole body and hands. i.e. using the GRF and redirecting it internally thru the skeletal structure and using the myofascial sheath to provide "ki", you can pretty much "extend" ki and kokyu in any of the 6 basic directions - up/down., left/right, front/back.

Also, look up "six harmonies eight methods" and it will give you some idea of how to apply kokyu. The principles are there and you now have enough to work out how to apply it in the aikido context.

Not sure what udefuri & udefuri choyaku are though. Can you clarify?

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