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#213980 - 12/12/05 05:11 AM Workouts in class?
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
We do alot of non basic excercises in class,pushups,crunches,etc. We do alot in class and throughout class,no place specific. Some people feel that working out is for outside of class and class should focus more on technique,etc..
I think it's a crucial part of a good karate class. If we did a class without pushups I would feel like something is missing.
How much excercise do you do in class? Do you think it should be a part of the routine or do you think the time could be used in another way?
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#213981 - 12/12/05 06:30 AM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
A good warmup was always part of class. Even when the instructors were saying that "advanced" students should do their warmups before class starts, we still did warmup exercises, including pushups, crunches, and running. Exercise does need to be part of class, including some strength training.

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#213982 - 12/12/05 07:03 AM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Personally, I agree.

A good warm up, some strength work, some endurance work and some stretch work are all important. (proberly 3/4 hour in all, 15 mins at the front end, 30 mins hard work to finish off with after the skills work, I like 2 hour total sessions)


However it would seem that a growing number of dojo do not agree with this.

These dojo say that its more important to teach and develop skills, I agree thats important but most (inc me!) students only have a small capacity to learn new skills, most of what is taught in a session is likely to not be taken in in reality, mental overload happens.

I also see the trend of instructors explaining, talking on and on about minute technical detail, more like ego coming out to me.

When I teach I like to train along side and with a small group, more hands on. Obviously I understand this perhaps wouldnt work with large groups or perhaps kids classes etc etc.

I also understand that my view is most certainly not right or wrong, its just my expierience.
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#213983 - 12/12/05 07:27 AM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
got to have exercises sprinkled in during the class. Anyone can practice when they are fresh...how well can we train while tired is the question being answered in nearly each class.
During a fight, we expend 10x (just picked a number that sounds good) the amount of energy as in training. so 12sec of fighting might feel like 2min of hard sparring in class. for a SD, life or death situation, this number might shoot up to 100x. (12sec = 20min)

emotion and fear expend an enormous amount of energy...training while tired or exhasted might give the extra 1 sec of strength needed just when we need it.

beginners might only get exercise from class, advanced should suppliment by exercising on their own as well.

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#213984 - 12/12/05 08:34 AM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Ed_Morris]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:



beginners might only get exercise from class, advanced should suppliment by exercising on their own as well.




Totally agree with this, and I think I would feel cheated if I didn't feel knackered after a class.
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#213985 - 12/12/05 09:11 AM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

Brian S

Coupla ways to look at it.

1-Class time should be spent on workingon the stuff that you NEED a teacher for--everything else, conditioning, strength training, etc should be done on your own time.

2-How many folks are really going to do all the conditioning and strength work on their own?
Very few--so you have to train it in class.

I kinda take the middle view--there should be a proper warm-up and cool down.
But you should be running and lifting on your own--outside of class.
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#213986 - 12/12/05 12:06 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I agree with BrainS statement on push ups a class wouldn't feel right without them. I like to add a lot of conditioning when I teach class I feel that a conditioned martial artist is a better martial artist. I have had some students tell me I am too difficult on them but that isn't true, because you don't gain anything if you don't work for it.

Examples of workouts:
Push ups, Burpees, bodyweight squats, ploymetric, and various core exercises. Every week I like to end class with 5 minutes of hard conditioning work and it is very intense.

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#213987 - 12/12/05 12:18 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: bo-ken]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
A bit of exercise in class is one thing. Such as the initial warm up, stretching and then Kata and what not... If you're doing your Kata properly, you'll be getting one helluva work out.

Then sprinkle some lightly, but I think that there should be more focus on techniques taught and Bunkai Practiced in class. Thats kind of the point of having a teacher.

One of the things one of my old school did. Was when we paid for our tuition, we also (included in it) paid for a membership at the Gym that was close. We'd meet at the Gym every once in a while (For the die hards, twice a week, for the lighter practitioners once a week or never. )

My sensei then guaged (based on class performance) what needed to be worked on, endurance, actual muscle, speed, etc. Then we all went to our seperate work outs and did our thing and came back to each other to talk, give encouragement, etc.

After the work out, we did some cool down and stretching exercises (Usually to lengthen the muscle and increase flexibility, dynamic stretching is what I think its called)


I thought this was a great idea, it drove up the cost of the Dojo by about 10 bucks, but because it was a "Group Rate" Over 10 people was the same rate, 12 - 40 ... So, in the end it wasn't that much more for being able to go work out whenever you needed...

I think more schools should do this, encourage the physical training outside of the dojo as well as inside.
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#213988 - 12/12/05 12:33 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: bo-ken]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with conditioning being a part of class cirriculum but how much time should be spent on just exercise? I believe that part of this along with repetitions of techniques must be done outside of class as a matter of fact when its done at home 3-4 times a day along with 2-3 days a week in class. You see more improvement in techniques and stamina, people that look at MA training like a night at the spa (done only that night), don't develope as fast as the more serious.

At a certain level if they don't improve physically, mentally and they won't be able to keep up. I think some times the class should check their williness to train hard. Not just exercise but drilling fast moving combinations that make them think like kiso/bunkias kumite or sparring drills controlled but serious reps.

What makes us different then the couch potato that jumps up and does a back fist, is that we have done it 10k times with meaning and purpose. Just like the difference in a NBA players jump shot, and that couch potato's.
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#213989 - 12/12/05 04:19 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Neko456]
PierrePressure Offline
Member

Registered: 07/02/05
Posts: 173
In my class, typically you exercise while waiting for your turn. For example, if you have like 5 or 6 people in one line, and it's not your turn to do the technique, you'll do like 5 push-ups, stand up, and stay "light on your feet" (basically just keep your feet moving). So we're still working out, but rarely do we have an "exercise" portion of the class, because if we have spent all of our time learning, they're not going to make us stay late to exercise. When that happens, they'll tell us to go home and do some exercising ourselves on our own time. But, if there is still time, we will do crunches and such.

Not to change the subject (but only to add), how much exercising do you guys do on tests? Of course, it's not realy "exercising" then, it's more like testing your endurance. I'd say we do an equal amount of push-ups, sit-ups, crunches, etc., as we do techniques. Do y'all do any "endurance" stuff on tests (those of you who have tests)? Again, I'm not trying to derail, but only to add .
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#213990 - 12/12/05 04:29 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I guess I am a bit confused by this.

The class itself should be a workout, no? I agree with a warmup, and of course some of the class will be dedicated to low intensity learning drills, but the majority of it should be partner resistance drills or sparring/rolling.

Just my opinion, but I prefer to do workouts that more closely resemble how I would be actually using my skills.

Pierre -

In all of the AKK rank tests I have been involved in, excercises were not part of the test. Higher rank tests in particular, were plenty long enough without excercises.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#213991 - 12/12/05 04:42 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: PierrePressure]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
We don't do any exercise at test, If you ain't got it together by then its too late. I want even ask a student to test if I know hes not ready physically or mentally.

I don't test endurance with exercise in test. I test it with drills and mental dilgence not getting their butt whipped, by remembering truth and controlling anger. If they perform like they have in class its a exhilarating exam, if they start doing stupid stuff like staying in the middle in 2-3 on 1 (paper sticks everybody armed) or multiple unarmed defense they can get beat down. Someone hits you and you concentrate on just him/her. You fall down you got to fight your way up. You can't let them take you out of your game plan, you have to accept that you will get hit sometimes. It ain't your show.
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#213992 - 12/12/05 04:55 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
A matter of efficiency Matt. Which is a more efficient method of increasing speed...1 hour of sparring, or 30 min sparring and 30 min leg strengthening exercises.
I'd go with the leg strengthening routine.

I don't think anyone could learn proper form/strength in techniques by constantly practicing sparring. or can they?

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#213993 - 12/12/05 04:57 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
Gino Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 410
Loc: New York State
Once again, I'm in the minority. I agree that a good, vigorous workout, in whatever form it takes, is an important prerequisite for any class. If you want to do push-ups as part of that warm-up, fine, but don't spend alot of time on them. I have our students stretch and drill in basics mostly as a warm-up. There is just to much material in the curriculum to spend alot of time on calesthenics. If we do pushups or crunches or any of the bazillion variations of them, I use them to demonstrate to the students proper form and the importance of exercise in the martial arts. I remind the students that a well-conditioned martial artist is better able to survive a violent encounter, but it is up to them to do the majority of their conditioning on their own time.
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#213994 - 12/12/05 05:48 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

A matter of efficiency Matt. Which is a more efficient method of increasing speed...1 hour of sparring, or 30 min sparring and 30 min leg strengthening exercises.
I'd go with the leg strengthening routine.

I don't think anyone could learn proper form/strength in techniques by constantly practicing sparring. or can they?




I think they can, if their instructors make it understood that good form = good efficiency. To use your example of "leg strengthening routine", I don't see how that could possibly increase your speed better than sparring.

Something about that getting hit factor that tends to bring out heretofore untapped reserves of speed that I did not know about....

And how would doing X amount of leg lifts (or whatever) change your kicking (for example) form? What if you do 100 crappy leg lifts? Or 1000? I don't see the efficiency relationship there, I guess.

Again for me, practicing skills in context has worked best. I would say that the type of sparring you do will determine how well you will learn strength and form.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#213995 - 12/12/05 07:40 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: MattJ]
srv Offline
The OTHER forum Doctor

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 139
Loc: SA, Australia
For us generally the class is a tough workout in itself. We do do a lot of push ups and sit ups as well as squat kicks or traditional punches in horse stance. This stuff definitely makes you knackered. Also doing lots of bag work /mit work is hard work if you're doing strong hard techniques. Kata is hard work if you put everything into it. We may incorporate sprints and push ups / sit ups into exercises involving bag work ie sprint from 1 side of dojo to the other, do 20 round kicks of each leg, sprint back, 20 push ups 20 sit ups and keep doing that for 2 minutes etc. And sparring or grappling is really hard work. So basically while everything is predominantly focussed on techniques, the class is a workout in intself.

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#213996 - 12/12/05 09:45 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
After a certain point in sparring too, technique goes out the window and it becomes a trade of sloppy wet noodles. the only training involved at that point is taking yourself to your limit of physical exhastion...there are other, and safer ways to train that.

besides, I'm not talking about 100's of reps of calestetics during class...that would be too time consuming.

I'm talking about variety with a principal theme each class: doing 25 reps of squat kicks, then kicking a pad or bag for another 25, then practice a step to the side parry kick combo kumite (or something found in kata) focusing on speed and accuracy, and then perhaps apply in non-pre arrainged drills. and repeat with variation of technique. In another class, power generation might be stressed...etc until the student eventually learns to put the principals together and without thinking.
I don't see how all principals can be trained all at once. raw muscle power needs building (exercises), coordination needs isolated drill practice (hiting a focus pad), proper technique needs understanding (repetition while being body aware), thats not to mention all of the internal training...breathing, hara, kime, etc

runners don't only run to train for speed.
boxers don't only box when training. so why should an MA class be ONLY sparring/fighting/SD? When exclusively sparring, bad habits are much harder for the student to recognize and harder for the instructor to point out. the back foot's heel coming up while kicking is one such bad habit that comes to mind.

I guess it depends what the style stresses as well. scoring points or trying to drop someone with one or two techniques are two very different philosophies and are trained for differently. one is not better than the other, just a different set of goals.

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#213997 - 12/12/05 10:09 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by MattJ -

Quote:

The class itself should be a workout, no? I agree with a warmup, and of course some of the class will be dedicated to low intensity learning drills, but the majority of it should be partner resistance drills or sparring/rolling.




*stealthily swaps Ed's regular coffee for decaf*

Quote by Ed Morris -

Quote:

boxers don't only box when training. so why should an MA class be ONLY sparring/fighting/SD? When exclusively sparring, bad habits are much harder for the student to recognize and harder for the instructor to point out.




I am not disagreeing. I never even said classes should be ONLY sparring - there are other types of resistant partner drills. But I do feel that these should be the majority, as these give a really good workout, in a properly MA context.

It's just my opinion on an internet forum. But feel free to shoot me.

Quote by Ed Morris -

Quote:

one is not better than the other, just a different set of goals.




Fair enough! I like some of your examples, too. I did think you were talking about 1000 calisthenics.

Slides into home plate, and he's SAFE!!

*hugs Ed, possibly inappropriate groping*
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#213998 - 12/12/05 10:46 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
c'mon matt...whats wrong with a little verbal sparring between friends? you know we'll hug and laugh about it later...{changes back to macho tone with a throat clearing ahem}
...and then later go out and pick up on women.

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#213999 - 12/14/05 08:40 AM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Ed_Morris]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:

After a certain point in sparring too, technique goes out the window and it becomes a trade of sloppy wet noodles.




Ha Ha...How true!
_________________________
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

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#214000 - 12/17/05 11:41 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
I teach in 2 different suburbs through adult education. Only one night a week each. If someone only gets taught one night a week, I'm not going to burn up half the class with pushups or jumping jacks. Better they get something to think about and work on for the next 6 days 'cause it's new and cool. If I had a permanent dojo it would be different, partialy because I can't come up with new stuff forever!
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#214001 - 01/18/06 04:26 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Ironfoot]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
I don't care for making calisthenics a part of class. We do individual stretching PRIOR to class, start light and ramp up the activity as class progresses. Line drills, kumite, mat work, whatever. My experience is that MA mostly boils down to constant repetition of important movements. The goal is that the movements become purely reflex. There are PLENTY of effective and challenging movements to keep anyone fit.

I don't mean this to sound offensive but it will anyway. Maybe it is fine for tournament based sport dojos. But I have no competition ambitions. Speaking only of of non-tournament self-defense dojos, it has seemed to me that the greater the emphasis on unrelated conditioning excercises (pushup, crunches, etc) the greater the void in that dojo of material to learn or ability to convey it. Class time never seems to be enough when properly employed.

My guess is that the emphasis on calisthenics is a legacy of the post war GI's that brought karate to the west. Returning here and starting schools with what were most probably green belt levels of knowledge, they filled out the class time with whatever they had. I'd figure maybe 50% MA and 50% PT and that's been handed down.

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#214002 - 01/18/06 04:47 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Ironfoot]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Agee with you there, usually people stand around for 5-10 minute before class doing nothing anyway. The smart ones are out on the floor warming up. Five minutes of warm up is all we do the rest of the class is about MA.
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#214003 - 01/19/06 07:25 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
Borrek Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Quote:

How much excercise do you do in class? Do you think it should be a part of the routine or do you think the time could be used in another way?




we always do things like crunches, udetate seiken, and suware geri during the first third of class. they are interspersed with with all of our other drills so its not like we have a full portion dedicated to working out. Our drill portion is usually 20 minutes or so

In my opinion its necessary because the whole point of drilling is to get your blood flowing and muscles loosened up for kata. also when a person is truly exerting themselves, I feel their body is more open to "suggestion" the brain turns off for a bit when you're tired and your foot goes exactly where your sensei places it. think of it as the lump of clay phenomenon.

plus there is a bit of discipline to learn in pushing yourself to the limits during exercises like knuckle pushups

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#214004 - 01/22/06 10:26 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Quote:

We do alot of non basic excercises in class,pushups,crunches,etc. We do alot in class and throughout class,no place specific. Some people feel that working out is for outside of class and class should focus more on technique,etc..
I think it's a crucial part of a good karate class. If we did a class without pushups I would feel like something is missing.
How much excercise do you do in class? Do you think it should be a part of the routine or do you think the time could be used in another way?




We do about 30 mins warmup and stretching before training in our 2 hour class. I vary from what i want to do daily because I want to keep the class guessing on what I do. This means they will not get bored or think its too easy. Also, stressing to body out will make the mind tougher IMO. Alot of teachers tell people that the big muscles or athletic bodys are not needed for MA but I beg to differ. It is funny to see how winded these people get without their proper training. Anything that make the body stronger will give you an advantage over an untrained person always.
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#214005 - 01/23/06 12:06 AM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: Eveal]
jc4199 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 362
Loc: Pevely, MO U.S.A
We have class and do drills and get instruction. Some time it a fast tempo drill some times not. After class we do a 45 min cardio class most people do not stay for it. After that some night grappling. Not saying it&#8217;s the right way just the way we do it.
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#214006 - 01/25/06 06:57 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: jc4199]
Blaise Offline
Member

Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 38
It depends on the night for me. Some nights are conditioning nights. It generally goes

Tuesday Night: kata...we rarely do conditioning on that night

Thursday: Sparring/self defense...sometimes this night is used just for conditioning

Friday: Black belt class/weapons...We learn the higher up katas here and practice techniques we don't do where we're mixed in with beginners, we also so fighting and sometimes weapons since weapons is incorporated into the program pretty much...we do a lot of conditioning on this night, too.

Saturday: Weapons class. No conditioning unless you count the warmups in the beginning, it's all weapon training.

I think it's good to have conditioning in class, but you also have to put in good time out of class to be in good enough shape to do what you're asked to do.

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#214007 - 01/26/06 11:12 PM What Consitutes a Workout? [Re: Blaise]
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
I'm not a big fan of "exercise" per sey being a key part of class. However, that should not be seen in the same light as a warmup.

An excellent warmup would include mostly dynamic (not ballistic) Range of Motion drills and other exercises which tend to "grease the neuromuscular groove" (with apologies to Pavel & Comrades) within which we will be moving - to be read as technique. Get the body ready for what it's going to be doing by doing something which actually resembles the action, albiet with an increasing gradient of difficulty.

Not to knock "conditioning" as relates to pushups, situps, et al . . . Waitaminute. Yes it is. The "exercises" often prescribed in martial arts classes are often of the grade-school P.E. variety - buncha pushups (knuckles in rusty nails and sand), buncha situps, maybe a few poorly executed bodyweight squats. The repetitions, they come like strikes in a straight blast - in bunches. Almost never is there a planned progression for improvement. Add more rusty nails and sand, do more reps.

I would sooner see instructors stick to what they know. If they aren't the best at imparting exercise form and the planning of non-technique training programs as a whole, either suggest the student find someone who knows the business, or bring that someone in anyway.

[steps off whiny soapbox]

Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a Regressive Party meeting at the commissary, and I would so hate to be late.


Edited by Stampede (01/26/06 11:13 PM)
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#214008 - 01/27/06 03:47 PM Re: What Consitutes a Workout? [Re: Stampede]
funstick5000 Offline
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Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
a good warm-up and stretching specifically are very important to a class. i agree that cardiovascular stuff can be built up in drills rather than exercises but stretching is far too important to leave behind.

stretches should cover all the main muscle groups in the legs and arms/shoulders. i also think its beneficial when doing stretches sitting down to create the foot shapes that you use in kicks to stretch the muscles that control them, to allow easier foot formation and better kicking.
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#214009 - 01/27/06 03:52 PM Re: What Consitutes a Workout? [Re: Stampede]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Stampede -

Quote:

An excellent warmup would include mostly dynamic (not ballistic) Range of Motion drills and other exercises which tend to "grease the neuromuscular groove" (with apologies to Pavel & Comrades) within which we will be moving - to be read as technique. Get the body ready for what it's going to be doing by doing something which actually resembles the action, albiet with an increasing gradient of difficulty.




I am not sure I have an idea of what you are talking about. How about a few examples for clarity?
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#214010 - 01/27/06 04:15 PM Re: Workouts in class? [Re: BrianS]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The class format is basically the same as yours from 9kyu - 6kyu White belts maybe. But at 5th kyu Green belt they know the drill and know why. At 5th kyu unless most are new to this level they warm up on their own in class, maybe practice the techniques at that level or some of the new material. Then class starts, if I notice that they haven't broke a sweat we do more excirses. Then class starts once they know how, you don't have to teach them to fish, ... Unless its a new excirses to develope a next level technique. Like the break fall roll into a strike or down low kick/sweep and back up, run. They already know this separately put it together into a sequence and you have an night fighting or escape technique. We do a ukemi pattern, as part of daily execirses.


Edited by Neko456 (01/27/06 04:20 PM)

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