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#212744 - 12/08/05 11:17 AM Can anybody but me see the difference???
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Can anybody but me see the difference? I was talking with some fellow MAs combat and tournaments instructors. In this discussion we talked about training methods. I spoke of my dislike for the tournament techniques that lack focus and practicality like the point gaining finger tip touch back fist or rigdehand, using the sparring glove end as the focus point. Or the skipping on one leg Quadtriple kicking technique.

Obviously some of these Instructors took offense and stated that my practice of finger tip jabs, slapping hooks and bottom of the glove overhand rights where not standard techniques and illegal in boxing. They made mention that the finger tip jab didn't have the power of a close fist jab, nor did the open hand slap to the body over the close fist hook.

My argument is that if I let them practice their boxing/kicking boxing on me then they should let me practice my style of sparring. I feel the difference is that I'm practicing under fire where I'm attacking or countering incoming blows with the deflecting finger tip jab to the eye or side of the neck (by the way this jab will rock the head, bc of the weight of the gloves and the of speed technique, but rarely will produce a knock down). The slapping hook is my plam strikes, the overhand left is my hammer fist. Now nobody gets really hurt except what happens when you box. I mean you going full out to hit solid and its continuous. Admittedly if they corner me and start wailing on me, I may sweep them. But I can only apologies because I'm not a boxer. I mean I think its a two way street they get to wail on me and I get to train on my accuracy and feel. I think this is functional and practical for me in training. Unlike the no purpose but a point finger tip touch back fist in a tournament. Some could see the difference, others couldn't and a few think that you should only box when you box.

Can anybody else see the difference? Would it bother you to train with a unothordox technicain?
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#212745 - 12/08/05 11:36 AM Re: Can anybody but me see the difference??? [Re: Neko456]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Its already been discussed that Tournament Technique and SD technique are not one in the same. That I'm not gonna touch

My only question is, where is it that your sparring people, where you're sparring Kick Boxers/Boxers and you're practicing a completely different? Or did I misunderstand something somewhere?
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#212746 - 12/08/05 01:15 PM Re: Can anybody but me see the difference??? [Re: phoenixsflame]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
We are boxing and kickboxing but my goal is to train specaility applications that will follow me into the street. I'm not hurting you might even say that I'm using a weaker technique striking with the finger tips to out reach/jab them. Or defelect their incoming strikes simutaneouly hitting with this technique aimed at the eye or side of the neck. The glove want let the strike touch their eyeball hurts less then a soild jab to the eye. These techniques are intermitting if I need a keep away jab I'll close my fist, usually these things happen unbeknowing to them. Its just my mind set like fading under a hook and slapping the thigh or lower abdomen as if a grion slap, since I'm passing by. Usually they don't even feel it.

Same sport just a different mind set and slight different use of technique. As long as nobodies really hurt i don't see the problem. Its like college wrestling using jujitsu or judo grappling techinques, in a judo dojo. Slightly different submit vs. just the pin. Same control, same suffle on the ground. Different purpose or results.
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#212747 - 12/08/05 02:12 PM Re: Can anybody but me see the difference??? [Re: Neko456]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

We are boxing and kickboxing but my goal is to train specaility applications that will follow me into the street. I'm not hurting you might even say that I'm using a weaker technique striking with the finger tips to out reach/jab them. Or defelect their incoming strikes simutaneouly hitting with this technique aimed at the eye or side of the neck. The glove want let the strike touch their eyeball hurts less then a soild jab to the eye. These techniques are intermitting if I need a keep away jab I'll close my fist, usually these things happen unbeknowing to them. Its just my mind set like fading under a hook and slapping the thigh or lower abdomen as if a grion slap, since I'm passing by. Usually they don't even feel it.

Same sport just a different mind set and slight different use of technique. As long as nobodies really hurt i don't see the problem. Its like college wrestling using jujitsu or judo grappling techinques, in a judo dojo. Slightly different submit vs. just the pin. Same control, same suffle on the ground. Different purpose or results.




Well, I think you might want to find a group to go to that can aid you in a less competitive fashion and a more SD fashion.

I can come from both sides of the fence here, from the competitors point of view.

You're not giving them anything that they will face in the ring when they are actually competing, thus they feel like you're wasting their time. They won't have to defend against a finger strike, or a palm strike, etc. You have to remember, they aren't training for SD, they (as competitors) are training to go up against others who are going to use the rules of "engagement" for their respective sport.

They want to train in a way that will help them react to their situation, more than train to react to an SD situation.

However, from a Self Defense/street practice technique. I could see wanting to practice against these folks, because A) I would say that Boxing is the #1 most practiced art by the populace at large. B) These are going to be some of the faster, stronger proponents of the Boxing/Kick boxing groups..

I guess, its a matter of how open they are to you not practicing what they're practicing. If you go into it with the partner saying. I'm going to do (*blank*) and they are allright with it, thats fine. But, if you're interrupting their practice or disturbing it. I'd say out of general ettiquette, you are in a Boxing/Kick Boxing Studio/Group.

Just a thought from both sides as I see it.
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#212748 - 12/08/05 04:18 PM Re: Can anybody but me see the difference??? [Re: phoenixsflame]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I see your point, but what do I get out of this I'm not a boxer r kickboxer. And I think the key issue is. If I was distrubing their workout? Our engages are as intense and forfilling as anybody in the group. So its not wasting their time, They are defending the issue what is proper technique. I say its how effectively trained & your mind set not how proper or by the book the punch/strike is thrown.

If I hadn't told them what I was doing they wouldn't know. They would have kept thinking that I have a fast accurate but weak jab.

Our disagreement is that the technique is not as lame and useless as the finger touch back fist or ridgehands seen sometimes in karate tournaments. I argue that in a pinch/real fight the user of such techniques may get use throwing the technique that way. In the same situation if I used and applied the same techniqiue against a incoming bombing attacker the same results would be his shots deflected and his eye damaged and me a easy flowup.

Some of these guys are getting ready for competition getting rounds in by going 3-4 rounds with each of us (building stamina and tenacity last minute of the last round U go!!) others just wanting to stay sharp. Why can't I have agenda that suits me? I can box but it ain't best suit card, with the kick boxers I can add kicks, so I have value to all. We don't kick with the boxers because its not how they train. Their argument is that its not proper way to punch in gloves, but I argue for who it fits my agenda.

And it doesn't hurt the workout. I'm through competing, if I'm gonna risk bruising, let me get mines in.
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#212749 - 12/08/05 04:21 PM Re: Can anybody but me see the difference??? [Re: Neko456]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Oh no, I agree with you about the forms and the usefulness of them in totality. However, I think you need to find a different place to train. Just to be completely honest, don't waste your time in an environment like that where you're not getting the instruction/interaction that will foster your desire for SD practice.
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#212750 - 12/08/05 05:09 PM Re: Can anybody but me see the difference??? [Re: phoenixsflame]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
PF - Everywhere you go there will be difference of opinion, if you only seek to train where we all see eye to eye, we will only train by ourselves. I pretty much got the deflection or jab down now, I could go back to power jabbing and sneak it in now and then. I enjoy working with these guys they are challenging and I also enjoy working with the other groups I workout with some strictly SD (mostly pre arranged techniques and philosophy), another group a mixture of JJ grappling & striking. Then we got the competitors from tournament Karate/Kung-fu to thai-boxers to Semi pro boxers. I like working with these guys. I can't just flat out whip them kick boxing or boxing, but we both know we've been in a scrap.

Its good to be flexible, mentally and physically. Some of these guys could never workout with each other.

Thanks for the advice.


Edited by Neko456 (12/08/05 05:11 PM)

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#212751 - 12/08/05 05:18 PM Re: Can anybody but me see the difference??? [Re: Neko456]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

PF - Everywhere you go there will be difference of opinion, if you only seek to train where we all see eye to eye, we will only train by ourselves. I pretty much got the deflection or jab down now, I could go back to power jabbing and sneak it in now and then. I enjoy working with these guys they are challenging and I also enjoy working with the other groups I workout with some strictly SD (mostly pre arranged techniques and philosophy), another group a mixture of JJ grappling & striking. Then we got the competitors from tournament Karate/Kung-fu to thai-boxers to Semi pro boxers. I like working with these guys. I can't just flat out whip them kick boxing or boxing, but we both know we've been in a scrap.

Its good to be flexible, mentally and physically. Some of these guys could never workout with each other.

Thanks for the advice.




Ooh, I misunderstood. I didn't know you were also practicing with other groups. I agree, it is wonderful to be able to approach multiple facets, and I think as long as everyone reaches a happy level where neither you nor they are stepping on the toes of the other. It will be a beneficial co-op.
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