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#212492 - 12/10/05 11:04 AM Post deleted by oldman [Re: Galen]
Anonymous
Unregistered




Edited by Happeh (12/10/05 11:05 AM)

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#212493 - 12/13/05 12:33 PM Re: An Interesting Story
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Quote:

You are missing the point.




Having read the rest of your post, I am quite certain that I am not missing the point. I just donít agree with it.

Quote:

Yes someone can tell you things straight out. You get nothing but words that way.




No, maybe all YOU get is words that way. This comment is a gross generalization with no foundation.

Quote:

Many people have been trained by the modern world to believe that the world works like a bubble gum machine. You put in a nickel, you get your gum. They want martial arts answers, they think the answer rolls out of the gumball machine.




This paragraph is confusing to say the least. Are you trying to say that simply because I expect a straight answer to a question, I have an unrealistic perspective of the world? That I donít deserve to be told the truth; that I have to jump through some interpretational hoops to figure out the answer to my question?

Please.

Remind me never to ask you to teach me anything.

Quote:

Knowledge ... is a product of knowing that there are no coincidences, and looking for the relationships between everything.




That is completely personal opinion and completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I myself do NOT believe that everything is connected. I believe that a great deal of the happenstances of life are just that; coincidence. You are trying to justify a common teaching methodology based on a premise that is NOT common. Doesnít wash.

Quote:

By making you listen to something long winded, they are forcing you to pay attention. They are forcing you to focus for however long they talk for you to get what you want. You are complaining they talk to much, but they are doing you a favor by training you to listen, focus, and have patience.




Are even listening to yourself? You say I should be grateful for long winded and boring parables? Thanks no. Ill take the straight answer, thanks.

Quote:

Besides. People do not like to be treated as gumball machines. If you ask a person for an answer, they give it to you, and your run off, they feel used. The attitude these days seems to be politeness and courtesy are for girly men.




I am begging you, please stop with the generalizations. You seem to base your entire argument on suppositions that cannot be proven. Besides that, you are straying off the argument. To say that straight answers are invalid because the listener is rude when he gets his answer is again, irrelevant.


Quote:

Think about yourself for a moment. Someone comes to you and makes a demand. How do you react? Most people instinctively retreat in the face of a demand. If the person keeps demanding, "Give me my answer NOW! Stop talking bullshit!". How would you feel? You would think the person was rude, selfish and uncaring of the feelings of others. Would you help a person like that?




Who said ANYTHING about making demands?? Where is this coming from?? My ONLY point is that parable style teaching is ineffective and counter productive. You are arguing points I havenít even made!

Quote:

I do agree that martial arts does hide things more than necessary. I agree with your sentiment that some things can be directly talked about instead of beating around the bush. I wanted to be certain that other people realize there is a legitimate reason for long winded or mysterious explanations.




In your opinion. Personally, I donít mind the occasional anecdote to make a point, but I donít agree with any of the points you have made here.

At the end of the day, my opinion stands. To be honest, I have known people who teach through parables more than any other format, and they are generally (and yes I am generalizing here, but it is a generalization based on my own experience; therefore, take it for what its worth) either arrogant in the extreme or they donít know the answer and rely on parables to make them sound more wise and well versed than they actually are.

G
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#212494 - 12/13/05 01:26 PM Re: An Interesting Story [Re: Galen]
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Galen your critic was overly harsh, but I think I can explain his attitude, but it will take an example. If you ever watch TVs ultimate fighter, there are many many examples where the best athelete and technician loses to someone who has less athletic ability or technical expertise. The problem is that people are not robots, you can tecah someone to punch and kick you can train them for spped strength or endurance, you can even teach someone to fight effectively against most opponents, but to become a fighter you need to figure it out for yourself. The only real difference for example between the #1 boxer in the world and the #25 boxer in the world is in their wiring. Sometimes you need to make things dificult for students, and make them figure things out. Finally when you use stories you reflect the moral back on the student, different people see different things in the same story. Analogy has been a way of teaching in every art since the beginning. Teaching is the art of saying the same thing many different ways so different people can figure it our, because no two people learn the same way.

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#212495 - 12/13/05 04:10 PM Re: An Interesting Story [Re: WADO]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
The old blind monk on the TV show "kung Fu" would have loved you I enjoyed your answer.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#212496 - 12/13/05 09:45 PM Re: An Interesting Story [Re: schanne]
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Remember my experience comes from 7 years of being a professor of two very different things, Asian Philosophy and Business Law. Sometimes I teach Logic as a philosophy course, when I teach business law I focus on facts when I teach Philosophy I teach people how to think. I also have the unique experience of also teaching martial arts, people that learn well when you tell them something become excellent brown belts, people who can think and apply in creative ways become excellent. In my law practice people that listen and learn sit in a back room and do research and make livings, people who can be flexible and creative and think creatively run everything. Creative thinking is more important than anything, I could teach every physical movement of Karate in 6 months, but if I had to teach someone to fight quickly I would only teach them 5 techniques, but focus on what's inside.

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#212497 - 12/14/05 10:36 AM Re: An Interesting Story [Re: WADO]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
Quote:

Remember my experience comes from 7 years of being a professor of two very different things, Asian Philosophy and Business Law.




I had started to respond to this with a list of my own teaching experience, but I thought better of it. Our varying experience in teaching is quite irrelevant. Simply because someone has been doing something for a long time doesnít make them right. Not only that, nothing said here can be proven, so where is the point?

Quote:

... people that learn well when you tell them something become excellent brown belts, people who can think and apply in creative ways become excellent.




I assume you meant to tag the words "black belts" on the end of that sentence, and I agree. Nice little definer there.

Quote:

In my law practice people that listen and learn sit in a back room and do research and make livings, people who can be flexible and creative and think creatively run everything.




Still agree. Not sure where this is going...

Quote:

Creative thinking is more important than anything, I could teach every physical movement of Karate in 6 months, but if I had to teach someone to fight quickly I would only teach them 5 techniques, but focus on what's inside.




After having read your post, I am hard pressed to find anything relevant to the discussion.

If you are saying that teaching through analogy and parable will foster creative thinkers as opposed to straight factual instruction, again I have to disagree, ONLY in that the effect of the instruction is completely based on the mind set of the student.

To say that teaching through allegory or analogy is a required part of developing creative thinkers is simply a generalization that cannot be proven. I know some very creative thinkers who were not taught that way, and I know some very un-creative thinkers who were.

All I am asking here is to understand that there are no absolutes in teaching. What works well for some may not work well for others.

At the end of the day, the best instructors are those able to understand what methodology works best for the individual student, and tailor their teaching to that methodology.

Now along the way someone made the point that there are somethings that students have to learn for themselves. Couldnt agree more, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

For myself, my original perspective stands. I personally do not like nor condone allegorical teaching. I find it does little more than cloud the lesson. Now if I find a student that responds to it, and reponds best to that kind of teaching, I would likely recommend they find another instructor. They wont learn effectively from me, because I dont practice that style of teaching.

G
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#212498 - 12/14/05 01:43 PM Re: An Interesting Story [Re: Galen]
comminus Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 14
I am a scientist and in my training in Physics, Math, Chemistry, Biology, and so on we were never told a single parable, allegory, etc. Still, creativity is more than encouraged. All the technology you use every day was developed by someone who was creative and was likely educated by cold, hard, facts and not silly stories.

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#212499 - 12/14/05 03:07 PM Re: An Interesting Story [Re: comminus]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I absolutely love it when scientists are able to keep an open mind.

Let me guess...PhD,right?

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#212500 - 12/14/05 03:30 PM Re: An Interesting Story [Re: BuDoc]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Him who knows it, knows it. Him who feels it, knows it better.




Bob Marley PhD

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#212501 - 12/14/05 03:45 PM Re: An Interesting Story [Re: Galen]
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
My point is that teaching someone facts teaches them only one thing how to think and be creative teaches them to learn anything they could possibly want to learn. The point in explaining that I teach both Law and Philosophy at both the gradate and undergraduate level was intended to illustrate that thinking is more important than knowledge in almost any profession, I would say that many business majors for example who take my Asian Philosophy course believe it is the best business course they had ever taken.

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