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#211343 - 12/16/05 01:21 AM Re: Moving meditation [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
What was that something about the one beget the two, the two beget three, and the three beget 10,000??? MA is just one of the 10,000 things from the same one. Within each MA is a seed of the one.

Or something like that....

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#211344 - 12/16/05 02:10 AM Re: Moving meditation [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

So...what is the point of achieving this state of control?




The combat training side of the internal systems, Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Bagua is to achieve what everyone in the internal arts talks about, namely, 'whole body power' for countering and striking.

So the 'state of control' as you put, is to get two things.

One, it is the internal system way to train for the iron shirt / golden bell; the conscious circulation of the chi in combination with specific muscle movements create the ability to 'tighten up' in isolation the torso area without obvious conscious effort and above all without any visible strain on your breathing (try to very strongly tighten up to take a punch and see the strain on your muscles, not just your torso area but the whole body, and the effect on your breathing?, like when you are defecating) In a combat situation you will be very stiff and virtually immobile.

This type of 'internal' training will also not give you any extra unwanted muscle bulk, which slows down your physical reaction and also reduces the essential ability to have a 'relaxed' posture in a combat situation.

Two, whole body power. The chi, once you can consciously circulate it, serves as a conscious 'link' to create an "internal" awareness between your "YI" (mind/intention) and the body's muscular-skeletal structure (MSS)(hence "Yi Chuan") The chi enhances this awareness of your MSS many fold so that you can translate the built-up of any out-put of power or strength from one part of your body to other parts very very efficiently -- WITHOUT having to expand too much muscular energy or movement because of the ability to consciously move the muscular and skeletal structure in one harmonious unit. That is why there are stories about oldmen being able to surprisingly fight much younger people. Something I, in my mid-fifties, am beginning to appreciate.

I am sure you have heard many internal MA people say the power starts from your foot or ankle and ends at your hand. How can you do that unless you are acutely aware of and can consciously manipulate "from the inside" your muscular-skeletal structure, and in a split second bring it from the foot to your hands? That's why its called whole body power -- all parts of the body made to function tightly as a single closed unit. The best example is the whip. The powerful movement starts from the holder's hand and you can see the power move along the length whip and ended up at the tip; and the loud cracking sound of the whip is actually made by the sonic boom created by the whip's tip moving at faster than the speed of sound.

The above can, I supposed, be understood intellectually; but unless you can do it, or at least starting to learn to do it to a certain level, it will not be easy to truly appreciate. Its like when you do a kata at white belt level and doing the same kata at third dan; its just not the same and anyone can see that. I am therefore still learning myself and have some way to go and have promised myself to "see" something on my 60th year.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#211345 - 12/16/05 10:54 AM Re: Moving meditation [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
So, if I understand you correctly, the point of moving meditation is to simply integrate body/mind for the physical benefits?

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#211346 - 12/16/05 12:56 PM Re: Moving meditation [Re: harlan]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Physical and Spiritual are not seperate, remember?

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#211347 - 12/16/05 12:56 PM Re: Moving meditation [Re: harlan]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
The way I see it is probably enough different from your explanation, burrerflypalm, to justify this little post (however; make no mistake about it, I am in no way trying to come across as your equal, I am still just a novice! Only want to share a slightly diferent view... different, but most likely the same, if one can only see it? )

In the beginning of doing the form (any form, preferrably slow, though) you are focusing on trying to make your body move in a certain way, without caring about breath. Your body will not really obey and on this level your mind and movement (body) are separate.
With time and practice your body will move exactly the way you want it to and eventually breathing will be syncronised with this movement.
After even more practice this movement will become automatic and your body (and breath) will "move with the mind" (this will be wholly understood by the few of you who've experianced it directly).
At this level you cannot separate body from mind, it's not like your willpower is moving the body in a perfect way (anymore; it may have been like that though), but mind and body move together, inseparable.
You are aware of every part of your body, no, you are aware WITH every part of your body, and movement of/by this awareness is what's taking place.

There truly is no duality, there is no distracting though, is this not moving meditation?


Edited by nenipp (12/16/05 12:57 PM)

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#211348 - 12/16/05 12:59 PM Re: Moving meditation [Re: WuXing]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yes, WuXing, I know that. But, I was pointing out that BFPalm's explanation was grounded in the physical understanding, and the mundane.

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#211349 - 12/16/05 10:22 PM Re: Moving meditation [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Yes, WuXing, I know that. But, I was pointing out that BFPalm's explanation was grounded in the physical understanding, and the mundane.




As this is a Forum for the martial arts, i.e. the 'martial' side of things, I've confined myself to this one out of many aspects of moving meditation; how you can, through conscious internalisation brought about by the conscious circulation of the chi, enhance greatly, with a little expenditure of physical effort, the efficiency of your, (as you put it), 'mundane' physical techniques. Even this part is difficult enough; those who have tried it will understand.

I do not wish to touch on the more esoteric aspects which have been claimed; I will only say that if the psychic component of the mind and physical body can be 'integrated' to such an extent that allows the latter to be a vehicle for an external expression of the former, then it may be arguable that one should keep an open mind on these esoteric aspects.

I am not qualified to talk about it untill I have experienced it, whatever it is.


Nenipp.

So long as you are not fully aware of the circulation of the chi in your body and make it an integral part of your physical movements when doing your forms, however much you feel or think you feel there is this complete integration, you are actually still at the external/physical level, albeit with a little heightened awareness due to physical familiarity of the forms over time.

You will truly realise the big difference only when it happens; no amount of talk will ever do.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#211350 - 12/17/05 02:45 PM Re: Moving meditation [Re: ButterflyPalm]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
I do believe you when you say (as I understand it) there's (at least) one more level to this, let's call it an energetic level, although I myself have at best scratched it's surface.

I do feel qi when I practice qigong, but not in any way that would come close to "fully aware of the circulation of the chi in your body and make it an integral part of your physical movements"

Thank's for helping me keep my feet on the ground!

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#211351 - 12/17/05 06:35 PM Re: Moving meditation [Re: eyrie]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
Quote:

What was that something about the one beget the two, the two beget three, and the three beget 10,000??? MA is just one of the 10,000 things from the same one. Within each MA is a seed of the one.

Or something like that....



If I remember correctly, the one is the Taiji, which broke up to Yin and Yang, so it is taiji you are searching for?
_________________________
Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without

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#211352 - 12/18/05 05:37 AM Re: Moving meditation [Re: nenipp]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Thank's for helping me keep my feet on the ground!




Nice to know you are at least 'grounded'

Tell me, if you don't mind, what happens when you breathe in a little forcefully through the nose and at the same time, with a little effort, consciously pull in your torso from both sides (not from the front) hold it for a moment, and then let the breath out through the nose and at the same time, with a little effort, consciously push your torso out to the sides (not towards the front)in time with the out-breath, and doing this for about 10-15 cycles?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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