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#211184 - 12/05/05 11:24 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Foolsgold]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

Quote:


Back on track though :

Are there any other religious institutions like the Temple that are going digital, and in doing so are losing their traditional moral standings?




http://www.notproud.com/index.php

Nah.

P.S. Check out their sponsors. Porn sites!




*cracks up*

Not proud indeed!
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While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211185 - 12/07/05 02:09 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

This, my friend, is the New Buddha -- E*Buddha.

There is a Buddha for every Age; this is just one in a series.

A couple of hundred years from now, a New Buddha will come and He will live according to the Times of His life, just as the first one did.

Nothing to be sad or worry about; all things will find its own balance eventually. If by doing what they are doing destroys the very purpose of their existence, so be it.

Harlan (of few words) is right -- go plant a tree or water one.
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#211186 - 12/07/05 10:51 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:


This, my friend, is the New Buddha -- E*Buddha.

There is a Buddha for every Age; this is just one in a series.

A couple of hundred years from now, a New Buddha will come and He will live according to the Times of His life, just as the first one did.

Nothing to be sad or worry about; all things will find its own balance eventually. If by doing what they are doing destroys the very purpose of their existence, so be it.

Harlan (of few words) is right -- go plant a tree or water one.




While planting a tree, I thought to myself.

"Its -6 degree's Celsius, the hell I'm staying outside."

So I came back in to comment.

See, the point isn't that this is effecting my practice at all. I'm not racked with horror and saddness that this is happening.

I'm simply worried on a concious level, that this will inevitably be the end of a very old tradition of Temple Buddhism/Martial Arts that has been removed from cultural influence for centuries.

And here's a question for you all.

Does this break the Vow of Poverty? Considering they have cellphones, laptops, expensive car's and are creating a high form of profit from their expertise? I understand that technically one can argue that they belong to the temple, but is that just a practice in semantics? A way loophole in the monestatic vows?

These are all just thoughts. I want to get peoples thoughts on it, thats it.
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#211187 - 12/07/05 11:09 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well, I swore off this thread...but Butterfly Palm stroked my ego sufficiently to come back.

Since I'm not a monk, can you recite this 'vow of poverty' and explain it? I doubt it means to swear to be poor. I suspect it is an ancillary promise to ones self to work for the benefit of all sentient beings (by not keeping anything for one's self), as well as swearing off of attachments.

It is the realm of the spirit and psyche that Buddhism traverses; to understand only on a one-dimensional level of the material is to be trapped in samsara.


Edited by harlan (12/07/05 11:13 AM)

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#211188 - 12/07/05 11:34 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

Well, I swore off this thread...but Butterfly Palm stroked my ego sufficiently to come back.

Since I'm not a monk, can you recite this 'vow of poverty' and explain it? I doubt it means to swear to be poor. I suspect it is an ancillary promise to ones self to work for the benefit of all sentient beings (by not keeping anything for one's self), as well as swearing off of attachments.

It is the realm of the spirit and psyche that Buddhism traverses; to understand only on a one-dimensional level of the material is to be trapped in samsara.





The vow of poverty as I understand it (Correct me if I'm wrong) is to personally own only your robes and a bowl. The rest is the temples. I do not know of the Shaolin have abandoned this vow in the recent (last 50 years) history. It is a forced parting with the material world for those who have just entered the temple, making it easier for them to focus if they aren't thinking about their "things".

I don't think the vow itself is a one dimensional thing, I think its more of like a double blind protection. It keeps the leader of the Abbey/Monestary from growing greedy and rich off of the donations to the temple. Of course I agree, it probably has a metaphoric prominence with the addressing of giving things unto the One thousand and one beings.

I am not sure about the exact Vow in the Shaolin Temple of Ch'en that was the head of this post, I know it historically (As in 200 or so years ago) but as of this day and age I am absolutely lost. If someone can find it, please post it. I'll search for it myself once I throw this up.



Note : This is the only thing I can find so far that lists the Vows that a Monestatic Order Takes : http://users.rcn.com/chicagobuddha/programs/dharmaworker.htm

Its down the way a bit. It says :
Vow of Poverty
Vow of Selfless Service
Vow of Community Life
Vow of Humility; and
Vow of Boundless Heart

Edit : Another Site that talks about the Vow of Poverty and some other vows : http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=122

Edit : Another Site that Mentions the Vow of Poverty : http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/schools-three-vehicles.shtml


Edited by phoenixsflame (12/07/05 12:05 PM)
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#211189 - 12/07/05 12:28 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
This is the better site:

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/schools-three-vehicles.shtml

It really depends on the person, and the context. I'm new to all of this, but my gut instinct tells me that a 'vow of poverty' is meant to bring about an inner state of being that fosters compassion, and recognizes attachments. It begins the work of becoming. But Buddhism has always changed (represented by the 84,000 Mahasiddhas); Buddhist teachings/practices are specific to person, time and place.

On a basic level, this practice of poverty is compassion. On a different level, it is about seeing attachments to things, and leads to abandoning ego/self. At a certain point, as one travels towards non-duality, there is no vow...because on a deep level one understands that there is no poverty...no dichotomy between self and other.

Actualized compassion.

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#211190 - 12/07/05 12:49 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

This is the better site:

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/schools-three-vehicles.shtml

It really depends on the person, and the context. I'm new to all of this, but my gut instinct tells me that a 'vow of poverty' is meant to bring about an inner state of being that fosters compassion, and recognizes attachments. It begins the work of becoming. But Buddhism has always changed (represented by the 84,000 Mahasiddhas); Buddhist teachings/practices are specific to person, time and place.

On a basic level, this practice of poverty is compassion. On a different level, it is about seeing attachments to things, and leads to abandoning ego/self. At a certain point, as one travels towards non-duality, there is no vow...because on a deep level one understands that there is no poverty...no dichotomy between self and other.

Actualized compassion.




Of course, but that actualized compassion is a much higher state of mind than most people ever achieve. Let me put it into a different way.

Even without the Vow, doesn't what they are doing take away from the concept of No Attachment? Usage of objects is fine, but from what I've read they're approaching existance in luxury (The cars are not just something to get around, they're expensive and beyond the point of usage, into luxury)

Does that not go against trying to rid oneself of attachments, and/or approach greed?

These are things that the lay person are told to avoid, should not the monestatic order, that which devotes their entire life to the precepts (not the vows of monestatic order) of the Buddhism shy away from?

I can see your point about the Vows, I was just using it as an example of the "extreme" forms of taking on the precepts.

But, I think even at a more basic level, it seems to be turning the Temple into a Corporation, a business on the heirarchal level. The monks who do not have any association with the movie studio, the demonstrations, the website, the paid trainning seminars, or the administration of any of these may have no influence by them, or they may be the working force (The Business Model being : Leadership/Administration/Working Force) or worse.

I am not against modernization in the least, I think that to understand and interface with the world all must change to cope. But, there is a difference between simple modernization and turning religion into business.

Harlan, not pertaining to Modernization, but to the actual incorporating of the Temple. Does it violate Buddhist Precepts? In your opinion.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211191 - 12/07/05 12:52 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
IS everything as it seems? I'm not Buddhist, and am ignorant, and don't understand the 'precepts'...so reserve an opinion on the actions of others.

Tell me, can you ride around in a car and not own it?

Don't forget about faith...the old story of the woman and the dog's tooth...

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#211192 - 12/07/05 12:55 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

IS everything as it seems? I'm not Buddhist, and am ignorant, and don't understand the 'precepts'...so reserve an opinion on the actions of others.




Ok then...

Quote:

Tell me, can you ride around in a car and not own it?




Of course. However, that isn't the point. I own a car, I am a buddhist. The point I was trying to make, was its not about the owning of a car by a temple, these are needed devices. It was the owning of a car, by an abbot that was far beyond the standard of a luxury vehicle even by american standards.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211193 - 12/07/05 01:04 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Okay...since you need an answer:

I think that it is understood that a monk or abbot does not 'own' anything of value. All material items, bought or donated, are part of the monastary's holdings. The abbot does not owe them, but approves the use/disposal of items as necessary for the work of a particular lineage or tradition.

Protecting the assets of the lineage is prudent, especially during changing times (and that would certainly seem to apply to the current situation in China)...and is done according to the times. In a sense, the abbot is protecting the Dharma by protecting the assets...and that is his difficult job as a leader.

I don't see abuse, but that may be my naivete/idealism.

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