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#211214 - 12/09/05 10:16 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
ok. {shhh, lets keep it a secret}

back to topic:
Monks with 'call waiting' and stock options...hmmm. Far cry from the Shaolin Monks that defeated a thug army for the Emperor and didn't want any compensation in return.

You realize after monks start making money, they will need to protect it right? That means guns. luckily, people will be less likely to shoot a monk since they wear hunter's orange.

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#211215 - 12/09/05 12:46 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Butterfly of Doom
Quote:

Without being frivolous or funny (believe me I've tried):-

While everything changes, nothing is truly lost?


------------


That's the thing. Phoenix is 'looking' for the (perceived?) 'lost of innocence' of the monks when surrrounded by the trappings of decadent modernity.

And a degree course in Business? where profit is king?

I thought history is nothing more than the educated perception of its students?




I'm glad you noticed the quote. I've used this quote for years. Its the fusion of two statements that I've heard over the years and saw them in a graphic novel by the hand of Neil Gaiman.

"The phoenix is the only thing to rise and never descend, and while everything changes. Nothing is truly lost."

The reason I brought this whole topic up is out of curiousity to see how people believe, see what they think about this.

I personally think it sucks, but the fact of the matter is. These monks will continue on their choosen path. While the face of their buddhism may change, it doesn't change buddhism. I do not want to see the traditional Shaolin destroyed or askewed.. It breaks my heart, because of some long standing idealism I have attributed to the Monestatic Orders... But, those monestatic orders are extreme's unto themselves... It only goes to show you, that one extreme will lead to another. (From great aseticism, to consumerism.)

I think that a Business degree for a monk is oxymoronic, however. I think that the furthering education of the monks on the society in which they are now being thrust is a huge issue.

Written history is the word of those who survived. Taken seriously any historic research is biased in the face of those who wrote it.

The kind of "history" that I think we face is the fact that there will be two histories written about everything. Those who agree with the act/decision and those who disagree. Somewhere inbetween we can find reality.

You are right, I am looking for something, I wouldn't call it so much a loss of innocence, because the monks have not been "naive" or "sheltered" for fifty years. More a loss of humility, even up until recent history there was a (false?) modesty attributed to them. The kind of humble nature that I think is key in a monestatic Buddhist order, less they become to much like their Western Counterparts who in modern history have become more and more opulent and decadent.



Ed Morris
Quote:

ok. {shhh, lets keep it a secret}

back to topic:
Monks with 'call waiting' and stock options...hmmm. Far cry from the Shaolin Monks that defeated a thug army for the Emperor and didn't want any compensation in return.

You realize after monks start making money, they will need to protect it right? That means guns. luckily, people will be less likely to shoot a monk since they wear hunter's orange.





But, the Shaolin Monks who defeated the thug army for the emperor and asked not for compensation unfortunately have had barely any influence on their counter-parts of modern age for centuries. It is unfortunate, but to be completely honest we can see the slow and waxing movement towards this inevitable end.

And yes, one of the factors that struck me as unsavoiry was the simple fact that once someone gets money. Establishment, Temple, Corporation, Religion or not. They begin to covet it.

The Tibetan Church, the Dalai Lama's organization has billions of dollars at its displosal. There have been attempted imbezzlements and fraud.

The Catholic Church... Well, we'll just say they don't have the best track record on not spending money wisely.

Personal or Incorporated, Money causes problems. This means less time focusing on the balancing of nondualistic thinking, and more time focusing on balancing the check book.

Again.

Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.

In the end, even if the temple is destroyed as we know it today. Somewhere in the future, decades or centuries later. There will be someone, even if its only one person who has recieved the words of one person before , and one person before, etc. Will remember the actual spirit in which the Temple was founded.

Even if it comes down to no one remembering a single thing about Buddhism, or the Shaolin monks, or the Ch'en Province, or the Zen Temples in Japan/China anywhere...

Someone will sit beneath a tree, or a water-fall. They will tap their chin and look around and think. "This isn't right..."

And once again the cycle will begin again.

That is, in and of itself the source of both my distress and my comfort. For, although I know that given time all things will return to the balance. It distresses and saddens me that it seems that those who once expounded on breaking the cycle and freeing themselves from this cycle of suffering and embracing the Samma/Right ways...

Now is leaning the opposite direction, it just leads momentum to that which we are trying to free ourselves from, Buddhist or Not.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211216 - 12/09/05 05:17 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Was the monks refusal of a reward from the emperor really modesty or humility or was it shrewd. Didn't they get a mega huge reward of some kind anyway (land rights or something)? That and they kept their street cred (or mountain path cred).
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#211217 - 12/09/05 05:28 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
PP, seems to me that you are all over the map. Modernization does not equate to corruption. Actually, I think the word 'corruption' is pretty interesting, and would be good for a Buddhist to contemplate. Accepting corruption as a natural part of existance would seem to be part of the first Nobel truth. All things are in a constant state of corruption.

As for the quote/signature line: I agree completely.

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#211218 - 12/09/05 10:11 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Interesting that you would classify "corruption" as a part of nature.

Would you say the same for the supernatural?
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#211219 - 12/09/05 11:55 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
First off, I want to know how many monks are getting their MBA? That's important because even a nonprofit org needs a business manager. The catholic church is a prime example of that. Even though Buddhists don't have "tithes" from its followers, it does have income from the donations of followers, and the problem happens at the higher levels or in larger congregations/sanghas, where there is alot more money to manage. In a material sense, there is no problem with what's happening to these Buddhists. There can be a spiritual problem if they let greed get to them.

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#211220 - 12/10/05 02:38 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Trevek : To my knowledge, they gained no reward. They just kept the Temple grounds upon which they trained.

Quote:

PP, seems to me that you are all over the map.




I was mixing both the thoughts I was having and my opinion. I tried to infuse more of my actual feeling into it, rather than just simple rhetorical questioning.. The first half was my thoughts on the money aspect, the second on my signature. Sorry if that was all over the map as you put it, but.. It all is the same thought.




Modernization does not equate to corruption.




Nor did I say it did. I said, and I quote. "Money causes problems" and "It distresses and saddens me that it seems that those who once expounded on breaking the cycle and freeing themselves from this cycle of suffering and embracing the Samma/Right ways..."

I do say money leads to corruption, as does power over many people. But, those are obvious statements.


Quote:

Actually, I think the word 'corruption' is pretty interesting, and would be good for a Buddhist to contemplate.





Quote:

Accepting corruption as a natural part of existance would seem to be part of the first Nobel truth. All things are in a constant state of corruption.




I think you confuse Entropy and Corruption. Corruption is the rot of negative emotions/actions/energy resting undischarged from the heart/soul of a being, be it corruption from the stereotypical Good and Evil, or corruption of an ideal... entropy is the decay of energy/conciousness/matter as it moves through reality. Entropy effects all things, but it does not mean they are corrupted. Things can face entropy and still be pure in what they are until the point that there is no atom left in existance.

And acceptance of corruption as apart of the First Noble Truth? While I think corruption creates Dukkha, I do not think it is an inevitable part of existance. I think it is inevitable so long as humans and/or other sentient creatures cling to the false aspirations of life... (Second, and Third Noble Truths) We will face corruption, because Samma isn't attained (Fourth Noble Truth) In the end it does lead back to those doesn't it?

I think supernaturally (In response to Foolsgold, who asked the question of Harlan, but I'm going to respond to anywho.) things are just energy. Thus, they would be effected in the same manner. We just don't understand it in a way that is perfectly explainable yet, or ever will be. You can't explain enlightenment, nor should you be able too. Does it not follow that some things should not follow this route as well?

But, back to the topic at hand. I can't speak for Harlan, but I think corruption is something only self aware entities can succumb too. And entropy? Well... There is no such thing in this world as an absolute, so I'm sure something exists that does not succumb to entropy, besides the entropy itself. Depending on how far your belief in the supernatural goes, we could exist upon an Astral/BiDimensional plane in which only this part of us succumbs to entropy, and we return to the "source" to store our memories/experiences and go off to the next adventure in the "reality" we all know and love.

Just some thought on that.

Note : For anyone with questions on the Four Noble Truths, a good website I've enjoyed is : www.buddhanet.net they have a lot of great information. Even some audiofiles of people speaking and all kinds of amazing things. A good source indeed for information.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211221 - 12/10/05 04:44 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I just read in a local newspaper that the Abbot is starting a project along the lines of the American Idol featuring MA masters.

That should be interesting. Do you all think he or his monks secretly lurk around here?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#211222 - 12/10/05 05:05 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I don't know if they lurk here or not, maybe they do. That MA "Master" thing is starting to cross the line. I'm beginning to agree with the others. Perhaps in a few years, things will settle down and the temple will be a place of religious study and meditation again, perhaps not, but I'm seeing that the money is going to their heads.

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#211223 - 12/10/05 07:39 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
To PP: forgive my ignorance. I am, after all, uneducated on the entire topic. My reasoning is flawed, and my old brain...tired. So, I pose questions myself...not exactly responding to what you say but kinda circumabulating...to learn from the feedback from others.

I see your distinction between corruption=rot and entropy=decay as one of semantics and preferred associations. There is nothing inherently distasteful about corruption/rot to me...it is.

"What makes an action good or bad?
Not how it looks, nor whether it is big or small,
But the good or evil motivation behind it"

"...People who early in life renounced all worldly activities may be found busily piling riches and provisions at the end. Others start out teaching and explaining the Dharma but end up as hunters, thieves or robbers. Learned monastic preceptors who in their youth kept all the Vinaya vows may in their old age beget many children. On the other hand, there are also many people who spend all their earlier years doing only wrong but who, in the end, devote themselves entirely to practising the holy Dharma and either attain accomplishment or, if not, at least by being on the path when they die go on th higher and higher rebirths.

Whether someone appears to be good or bad just at present, therefore, is but a momentary impression that has no permanence or stability whatsover."

-The Words of My Perfect Teacher, by Patrul Rinpoche

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