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#211174 - 12/05/05 08:52 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
You are seeing this as if it was the first time...but it is not. Even in the time of Confucious, people were asking asking the same questions.

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#211175 - 12/05/05 10:10 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

You are seeing this as if it was the first time...but it is not. Even in the time of Confucious, people were asking asking the same questions.




This is however, the first time technology has dominated and the Shaolin Monks have been able to communicate with the world as a whole instantly.

Do not confuse this for the questions of marriage, or modernization of "Buddhist" precepts/practices that was faced centuries ago. In years past, it was not a question about technology over-riding spirituality. It was a question of pressure from dynasty, government, etc, wanting to push the temples to back them in order to gain the sway of the people.

This on the other hand is making the Shaolin Temple a global part of the community, yet in a way that is not balanced. They are the commericalized temple.. What has happened in the past when religion/spirituality has mixed with commericialism? Does one need to be reminded of the Dark Ages Church? The Church of England in the 1600-1800's? What about the Evangelical Churches of the Southern United States that have been awash in embezzlement scandals for the past two decades?

This is an industrialized problem, born of technology rooting our philosophical brethern out of their robes and into suits.

I myself am sickened by it. I know for a fact that the temple is profiting if their leader is driving around in a car that most of those without a "Vow of Poverty" can't afford....

I think its the hypocricy, I do not see any of the humbleness in the actions. I believe there is a strict balance that should be garnered between openness to the world and balance in oneself.

I think the Shaolin Temples can of course open up to the world and share their knowledge.

I do not think however, they are doing it in a way that will preserve their traditions and bring them into this century. They are forgetting what exactly it is to take a monestatic vow.

Are they forgetting their precepts of humility, and poverty? It seems so.

And thats just a shame, because in the end it will not cost them a thing.

It will cost the world.
_________________________
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#211176 - 12/05/05 10:16 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
*Sigh* Such hubris...'technology' and 'modernization' are ongoing. Schisms in religious thought have been going on since religion started, and a lot of it was due to the influence of money, politics, and abuse.

Forgive me if I don't share your indignation. In some places, entering the monastary is not a call to spirituality...it means food and shelter. In some traditions, vows can be given back without any problems.

And as for the impact on the world? Plant a tree.



Edited by harlan (12/05/05 10:33 AM)

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#211177 - 12/05/05 10:31 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

*Sigh* Such hubris...'technology' and 'modernization' are ongoing. Schisms in religious thought have been going on since religion started, and a lot of it was due to the influence of money, politics, and abuse.




I apologize if my post smacked of pride or arrogance, it was not my intent but my words stand.

Of course these factors have been at play, but this is a completely new facet. You can play this off as simply a furthering of challenges facing religion or spirituality. Because that it is, I'm simply wanting to see peoples thoughts on it.

I'm not trying to say this is the end of buddhism, far from it.

I also want to ammend one thing I said, not all the monks are forgetting the vows they made. Just the one among the "CEO Monk" and his cronies.

Harlan, why not throw in your thoughts on it rather than brushing it off? I'd love to see your thoughts on the direction of the temple, rather than just citing the causes.

Personally, I think it will cause a great loss of accountability among the monks and temples. People will take them less seriously, as a group and take their practices less seriously as a martial art. Only because of their exposure, anything that reaches high exposure gains the most critical view.

"Closer to the fire, illuminates the best, but burns the hottest." Or so it would seem.


Quote:

Forgive me if I don't share your indignation. In some places, entering the monastary is not a call to spirituality...it means food and shelter. In some traditions, vows can be given back without any problems.

And as for the impact on the world? Plant a tree.
Quote:



These are not the traditions we are speaking of. They are traditions with much more open and relaxed focuses than what the Temple in the article once had.

Vows can always be given up, and the person can leave into the modern world. We're not talking about giving up vow's and leaving Harlan. We're talking about giving up Vow's, while still in the Temple.

This to me, is a large issue from two stand points. Martial Artist and Buddhist, both because of tradition and because the new actions of the Temple conflict with the message of humility and Ego-less action.

I don't quite understand the last bit of your post. It has a huge impact on the world as a whole, if the tradition of this temple is lost permenantly, it is the death of a culture. It can be revived, but some traditions are always lost in the time between revivals.

Funny enough that Buddhism is getting a revival in China and its causing some of the tradtitional sects to completely remake themselves in a capitalistic image.


Edited by phoenixsflame (12/05/05 10:46 AM)
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211178 - 12/05/05 10:38 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
See above edited post.

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#211179 - 12/05/05 10:47 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

See above edited post.




See above edited Post.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211180 - 12/05/05 11:00 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
"I don't quite understand the last bit of your post."

Let me restate: I don't care if the Temple burns to the gound, if the monks pimp out on the side, or if Buddhism goes world wide as another form of 'tele-evangelism'.

I care about...right now. This moment, and what I can do with my hands and mind...right now. If I want to focus my mind on something...it won't be the whoring of an institution. A 10 year old was walking in the woods two days ago...and got shot by hunters. The authorities decline to say how many times he was shot. There are tragedies every moment, and I chose to use my precious time on this planet helping where I can. MY vows (probably better stated as my personal ethics) matter to me...not the vows of others.

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#211181 - 12/05/05 11:09 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

"I don't quite understand the last bit of your post."

Let me restate: I don't care if the Temple burns to the gound, if the monks pimp out on the side, or if Buddhism goes world wide as another form of 'tele-evangelism'.

I care about...right now. This moment, and what I can do with my hands and mind...right now. If I want to focus my mind on something...it won't be the whoring of an institution. A 10 year old was walking in the woods two days ago...and got shot by hunters. The authorities decline to say how many times he was shot. There are tragedies every moment, and I chose to use my precious time on this planet helping where I can. MY vows (probably better stated as my personal ethics) matter to me...not the vows of others.




And while that is admirable, I have a question for you.

Why did it take you this long for you to give your opinion? Your original post, to me, and I will be the first to admit my perceptions can be wrong, seemed to look down upon the discussion of these things.

I think discussion is the life's blood of questioning, by discussing we can form our thoughts.

And if you don't want to be focusing your thoughts on the whoring of an institution. Don't comment, don't post. Focus your thoughts elsewhere. I always welcome your discussion, with open arms. But, if it isn't going to be true discussion, just condesention upon those who do wish to create banter about it. This is the purpose of a forum of discussion, yes?

If I misunderstood anything, please correct me. I am more than open to it. These are of course, my personal views. They are as flawed as the next.


Back on track though :

Are there any other religious institutions like the Temple that are going digital, and in doing so are losing their traditional moral standings?
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211182 - 12/05/05 11:10 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Done.

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#211183 - 12/05/05 11:20 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Quote:


Back on track though :

Are there any other religious institutions like the Temple that are going digital, and in doing so are losing their traditional moral standings?




http://www.notproud.com/index.php

Nah.

P.S. Check out their sponsors. Porn sites!
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