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#211164 - 12/04/05 05:22 PM Hmm. Modernization...
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
I don't know how I feel on this, actually... Let me rephrase this.

I know how I feel, but I'm not going to place that on this thread just yet. I want to see how everyone else feels in reference to this website :

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-temple4dec04,0,1545625.story?track=tottext

Its an interesting article. Come on and post and tell me what you think, once there are a few responses of peoples thoughts I'll post my thoughts as well. Praise or Concern.

Although those of you who've read my previous posts probably know my feelings already


Edited by phoenixsflame (12/04/05 06:21 PM)
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211165 - 12/04/05 06:15 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
chickenchaser Offline
Member

Registered: 10/29/05
Posts: 204
Loc: Auburn,New York,U.S.A.
sorry phoenix it says the page is not available...
_________________________
"The early bird gets the worm, but the bird in a hurry only gets half of one." --- Sensei Corey

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#211166 - 12/04/05 06:18 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: chickenchaser]
Alicia Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 222
Loc: BC, Canada
I thought so too, but you have to actually cut and paste the entire address, and it's works.


Edited by Alicia (12/04/05 06:19 PM)
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"If someone asked me what a human being ought to devote the maximum of his life to, I would answer: training. Train more than you sleep."
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#211167 - 12/04/05 06:22 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Alicia]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
There, I fixed it. Stupid PHP.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211168 - 12/04/05 10:47 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Sorry, I still can't get there.

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#211169 - 12/04/05 10:56 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
here's the content:
Quote:

Kung Fu Monks Go Modern
Amid China's growing interest in religion, an abbot uses TV, films and the Web to market an ancient temple made famous by a Jet Li movie.

By Ching-Ching Ni, Times Staff Writer


SONGSHAN, China Shi Yongxin wears a bright yellow robe and heavy prayer beads and lives in an ancient shrine high up in the mountains of central China.

Yet he spends a lot of his time traveling in a chauffeur-driven jeep, jet-setting around the world and hobnobbing with Hollywood types.

No wonder some people call him a CEO in a monk's robe.

As abbot of the world-famous Shaolin Temple, the holy land of kung fu, Shi indeed plays multiple roles. His latest is executive producer of a $25-million movie about the life and times of the legendary fighting monks that is set to hit cinemas in time for the 2008 Beijing Olympics. He also has a reality TV project in the works, a kind of "American Idol" for kung fu masters.

To critics, Shi's lifestyle and projects prove how far the Shaolin Temple has strayed from its roots in an increasingly commercial society. But its controversial abbot says it's no crime to keep up with the times in order to preserve the past.

"Movies, TV shows, the Internet these are all modern communication tools," said Shi, sitting in the dark chambers of his office in the Shaolin Temple as aides with shaved heads buzzed around arranging his busy schedule on their cellphones. "We are monks living in a new era. We should take advantage of these technologies and use them to serve Buddhism and traditional culture."

At 40, Shi is one of the youngest leaders in the history of the 1,500-year-old shrine. Perhaps because of his youth, he has presided over some of the boldest moves at the birthplace of Zen Buddhism.

Among his innovations were setting up the country's first temple-based website back in 1996, when few in China had heard of the Internet. The next online move was more of a head-turner: He revealed some fighting sequences previously considered top secrets passed only to true disciples.

Shi flung open the doors of Shaolin further by sending cloistered monks all over the world to perform and promote the temple's Zen-inspired martial arts.

He knew physical prowess was not enough. He set up a corporation to defend the temple's "brand name." He was also among the first to send yellow-robed monks to take MBA courses and get doctorates.

No idea seems too far-fetched. He created a broadcasting company enabling the temple to produce film projects and oversee the selection of scripts and stars. He has been contemplating the possibility of taking his martial arts disciples to the stages of Las Vegas.

"We used to be isolated from the world. Our outside contact was only with the land, through farming," Shi said. "Now we must deal with people, it's not as simple. We need to gain knowledge, learn new skills, like study English, know about computers and study overseas."

In many ways, the Shaolin Temple is riding the wave of a Buddhist revival in China. After years of decline, it is back and more popular than ever. Thanks to the country's growing wealthy class and a yearning for spirituality, people are increasingly turning to religion and opening their wallets to show their faith.

Communist China is officially atheist, but it is home to an estimated 100 million believers of all faiths. Though hard to quantify, many are thought to be followers of traditional faiths such as Buddhism and Taoism, while an increasing number are converts to Christianity.

Old temples are rising from the ashes and being restored to their former glory. New temples are popping up from cities to the countryside. Demand is so high for religious services that sending monks to business school has become a growing necessity in the quest to better manage these thriving houses of worship.

"We are learning about communication skills, client psychology, marketing, human resources and strategic management techniques," said Chang Chun, a monk at Shanghai's Jade Buddha Temple. He is one of 18 monks taking a half-year course in business administration at Shanghai's Jiaotong University.

Located in the heart of a vibrant metropolis, Jade Buddha Temple has a wealthy clientele. That means a need for creative ways to link its modern lifestyle with an ancient religion. A colorful brochure near the entrance advertises opportunities to invite monks to bless newly purchased automobiles and real estate for a fee, of course.

"Some people think monks should do nothing but sit around and read scriptures," Xue Ming, another monk taking the business course, said as he sat in a newly built conference room with leather sofas and computer cubicles. "The times have changed we have to change too. If we stay the same, we can't survive."

By the end of the Cultural Revolution in 1976, Chinese Buddhism seemed to teeter on the brink of extinction.

Temples across the country were either destroyed or forced to serve the people in secular ways. Some morphed into factories, storage facilities, residential units and schoolhouses. Precious scriptures were burned; Buddhist statues were smashed or had their faces hacked out. Many monks were kicked out to seek new livelihoods.

Shi arrived in 1981 to find the Shaolin Temple, nestled in the hills of the misty Song Mountains in central China's Henan province, a shadow of its former self. Where once 2,000 monks lived on an estate that stretched for miles, just 12 elderly monks remained, subsisting by farming a tiny plot of land and keeping a low profile reading scriptures and practicing kung fu.

Then came "Shaolin Temple," a 1982 film that was the first Hong Kong kung fu flick to be shot at the temple. Its star was a then-unknown martial artist called Jet Li. It launched his acting career and brought international acclaim to a dilapidated monastery in the Chinese heartland.

"That movie turned out to be a great advertisement for the Shaolin Temple," Shi said.

He has no qualms about capitalizing on the temple's fame. Buddhism, after all, has always been on the cutting edge of innovation, he said. It was among the first religions to use paper to write scriptures and print scrolls. And advertising is not necessarily a bad word.

"What is a pagoda? It is like an ancient billboard," Shi said. "Buddhist statues too are a form of advertising. If we don't advertise, nobody would know about us."

The problem, however, is that the more people know about the Shaolin Temple, the more they want a piece of its good fortune.

As China moved toward a market-oriented economy, the Shaolin phenomenon to some became just another big business opportunity. Products as wide-ranging as pork sausages and cars, martial arts academies and security doors started to be marketed under the Shaolin name. In 1997, the temple made headlines by establishing a corporation and hiring lawyers to fight trademark violations.

The hardest thing for Shi is fighting the perception that the Shaolin Temple is in it for the money.

"When some people see us doing things like brand protection and movies, they think there's something inappropriate," Shi said.

"But what we are doing is in keeping with tradition. Monks from every dynasty had to adapt to the changes of society. We are monks. But we are also citizens."




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#211170 - 12/04/05 11:00 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Copy and Paste the link worked for me...


Kind of reminds me of "Fiddler on the Roof." Facing the conflict between religion and modernization/change and how to reconcile between the two. I don't think they really had an answer, either, except to keep on keep'n on the best they could.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#211171 - 12/04/05 11:07 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I think it's just sad what has happened to the Shaolin temple. After all of that history what is it now exactly? a joke and tourist attraction. They provide 'Kung-Fu' courses that are setup like college exchange programs and the foreign exchange students get their laser printed certificate and shiny sash after the course....then some of them come back to the US and open their own dojos, making sure they mention that they have been 'Shaolin Temple' trained. framed laser printed certificate in plain site. Thousands of dollars and a leave of absence from work just for that paper. If they only knew they are for sale on e-bay for $9.98!
LOL

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#211172 - 12/04/05 11:43 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I think it's a shame that times and circumstances have conspired to make this a necessity to the Shaolin. My only concern would be if they were putting the money to good use. If the profits they derived were being used to restore the temples, and care for the monks and the poor, and to educate people on Ch'an/Zen Buddhism, then I have no problem with the tactics used.

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#211173 - 12/04/05 11:55 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
well...thats true bushi, but there comes a point when it is just plain and simple selling out. SOMEBODY is profiting from the Shaolin temple...and I'm pretty sure it isn't mainly the dedicated monks. of course, they have sections of the temple that are off limits to any outsiders....so who knows really. conning the west was probably just too attractive to resist...I can't say I blame them.

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#211174 - 12/05/05 08:52 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You are seeing this as if it was the first time...but it is not. Even in the time of Confucious, people were asking asking the same questions.

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#211175 - 12/05/05 10:10 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

You are seeing this as if it was the first time...but it is not. Even in the time of Confucious, people were asking asking the same questions.




This is however, the first time technology has dominated and the Shaolin Monks have been able to communicate with the world as a whole instantly.

Do not confuse this for the questions of marriage, or modernization of "Buddhist" precepts/practices that was faced centuries ago. In years past, it was not a question about technology over-riding spirituality. It was a question of pressure from dynasty, government, etc, wanting to push the temples to back them in order to gain the sway of the people.

This on the other hand is making the Shaolin Temple a global part of the community, yet in a way that is not balanced. They are the commericalized temple.. What has happened in the past when religion/spirituality has mixed with commericialism? Does one need to be reminded of the Dark Ages Church? The Church of England in the 1600-1800's? What about the Evangelical Churches of the Southern United States that have been awash in embezzlement scandals for the past two decades?

This is an industrialized problem, born of technology rooting our philosophical brethern out of their robes and into suits.

I myself am sickened by it. I know for a fact that the temple is profiting if their leader is driving around in a car that most of those without a "Vow of Poverty" can't afford....

I think its the hypocricy, I do not see any of the humbleness in the actions. I believe there is a strict balance that should be garnered between openness to the world and balance in oneself.

I think the Shaolin Temples can of course open up to the world and share their knowledge.

I do not think however, they are doing it in a way that will preserve their traditions and bring them into this century. They are forgetting what exactly it is to take a monestatic vow.

Are they forgetting their precepts of humility, and poverty? It seems so.

And thats just a shame, because in the end it will not cost them a thing.

It will cost the world.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211176 - 12/05/05 10:16 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
*Sigh* Such hubris...'technology' and 'modernization' are ongoing. Schisms in religious thought have been going on since religion started, and a lot of it was due to the influence of money, politics, and abuse.

Forgive me if I don't share your indignation. In some places, entering the monastary is not a call to spirituality...it means food and shelter. In some traditions, vows can be given back without any problems.

And as for the impact on the world? Plant a tree.



Edited by harlan (12/05/05 10:33 AM)

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#211177 - 12/05/05 10:31 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

*Sigh* Such hubris...'technology' and 'modernization' are ongoing. Schisms in religious thought have been going on since religion started, and a lot of it was due to the influence of money, politics, and abuse.




I apologize if my post smacked of pride or arrogance, it was not my intent but my words stand.

Of course these factors have been at play, but this is a completely new facet. You can play this off as simply a furthering of challenges facing religion or spirituality. Because that it is, I'm simply wanting to see peoples thoughts on it.

I'm not trying to say this is the end of buddhism, far from it.

I also want to ammend one thing I said, not all the monks are forgetting the vows they made. Just the one among the "CEO Monk" and his cronies.

Harlan, why not throw in your thoughts on it rather than brushing it off? I'd love to see your thoughts on the direction of the temple, rather than just citing the causes.

Personally, I think it will cause a great loss of accountability among the monks and temples. People will take them less seriously, as a group and take their practices less seriously as a martial art. Only because of their exposure, anything that reaches high exposure gains the most critical view.

"Closer to the fire, illuminates the best, but burns the hottest." Or so it would seem.


Quote:

Forgive me if I don't share your indignation. In some places, entering the monastary is not a call to spirituality...it means food and shelter. In some traditions, vows can be given back without any problems.

And as for the impact on the world? Plant a tree.
Quote:



These are not the traditions we are speaking of. They are traditions with much more open and relaxed focuses than what the Temple in the article once had.

Vows can always be given up, and the person can leave into the modern world. We're not talking about giving up vow's and leaving Harlan. We're talking about giving up Vow's, while still in the Temple.

This to me, is a large issue from two stand points. Martial Artist and Buddhist, both because of tradition and because the new actions of the Temple conflict with the message of humility and Ego-less action.

I don't quite understand the last bit of your post. It has a huge impact on the world as a whole, if the tradition of this temple is lost permenantly, it is the death of a culture. It can be revived, but some traditions are always lost in the time between revivals.

Funny enough that Buddhism is getting a revival in China and its causing some of the tradtitional sects to completely remake themselves in a capitalistic image.


Edited by phoenixsflame (12/05/05 10:46 AM)
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#211178 - 12/05/05 10:38 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
See above edited post.

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#211179 - 12/05/05 10:47 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

See above edited post.




See above edited Post.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211180 - 12/05/05 11:00 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
"I don't quite understand the last bit of your post."

Let me restate: I don't care if the Temple burns to the gound, if the monks pimp out on the side, or if Buddhism goes world wide as another form of 'tele-evangelism'.

I care about...right now. This moment, and what I can do with my hands and mind...right now. If I want to focus my mind on something...it won't be the whoring of an institution. A 10 year old was walking in the woods two days ago...and got shot by hunters. The authorities decline to say how many times he was shot. There are tragedies every moment, and I chose to use my precious time on this planet helping where I can. MY vows (probably better stated as my personal ethics) matter to me...not the vows of others.

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#211181 - 12/05/05 11:09 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

"I don't quite understand the last bit of your post."

Let me restate: I don't care if the Temple burns to the gound, if the monks pimp out on the side, or if Buddhism goes world wide as another form of 'tele-evangelism'.

I care about...right now. This moment, and what I can do with my hands and mind...right now. If I want to focus my mind on something...it won't be the whoring of an institution. A 10 year old was walking in the woods two days ago...and got shot by hunters. The authorities decline to say how many times he was shot. There are tragedies every moment, and I chose to use my precious time on this planet helping where I can. MY vows (probably better stated as my personal ethics) matter to me...not the vows of others.




And while that is admirable, I have a question for you.

Why did it take you this long for you to give your opinion? Your original post, to me, and I will be the first to admit my perceptions can be wrong, seemed to look down upon the discussion of these things.

I think discussion is the life's blood of questioning, by discussing we can form our thoughts.

And if you don't want to be focusing your thoughts on the whoring of an institution. Don't comment, don't post. Focus your thoughts elsewhere. I always welcome your discussion, with open arms. But, if it isn't going to be true discussion, just condesention upon those who do wish to create banter about it. This is the purpose of a forum of discussion, yes?

If I misunderstood anything, please correct me. I am more than open to it. These are of course, my personal views. They are as flawed as the next.


Back on track though :

Are there any other religious institutions like the Temple that are going digital, and in doing so are losing their traditional moral standings?
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While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211182 - 12/05/05 11:10 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Done.

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#211183 - 12/05/05 11:20 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Quote:


Back on track though :

Are there any other religious institutions like the Temple that are going digital, and in doing so are losing their traditional moral standings?




http://www.notproud.com/index.php

Nah.

P.S. Check out their sponsors. Porn sites!
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#211184 - 12/05/05 11:24 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Foolsgold]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

Quote:


Back on track though :

Are there any other religious institutions like the Temple that are going digital, and in doing so are losing their traditional moral standings?




http://www.notproud.com/index.php

Nah.

P.S. Check out their sponsors. Porn sites!




*cracks up*

Not proud indeed!
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211185 - 12/07/05 02:09 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

This, my friend, is the New Buddha -- E*Buddha.

There is a Buddha for every Age; this is just one in a series.

A couple of hundred years from now, a New Buddha will come and He will live according to the Times of His life, just as the first one did.

Nothing to be sad or worry about; all things will find its own balance eventually. If by doing what they are doing destroys the very purpose of their existence, so be it.

Harlan (of few words) is right -- go plant a tree or water one.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#211186 - 12/07/05 10:51 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:


This, my friend, is the New Buddha -- E*Buddha.

There is a Buddha for every Age; this is just one in a series.

A couple of hundred years from now, a New Buddha will come and He will live according to the Times of His life, just as the first one did.

Nothing to be sad or worry about; all things will find its own balance eventually. If by doing what they are doing destroys the very purpose of their existence, so be it.

Harlan (of few words) is right -- go plant a tree or water one.




While planting a tree, I thought to myself.

"Its -6 degree's Celsius, the hell I'm staying outside."

So I came back in to comment.

See, the point isn't that this is effecting my practice at all. I'm not racked with horror and saddness that this is happening.

I'm simply worried on a concious level, that this will inevitably be the end of a very old tradition of Temple Buddhism/Martial Arts that has been removed from cultural influence for centuries.

And here's a question for you all.

Does this break the Vow of Poverty? Considering they have cellphones, laptops, expensive car's and are creating a high form of profit from their expertise? I understand that technically one can argue that they belong to the temple, but is that just a practice in semantics? A way loophole in the monestatic vows?

These are all just thoughts. I want to get peoples thoughts on it, thats it.
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#211187 - 12/07/05 11:09 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well, I swore off this thread...but Butterfly Palm stroked my ego sufficiently to come back.

Since I'm not a monk, can you recite this 'vow of poverty' and explain it? I doubt it means to swear to be poor. I suspect it is an ancillary promise to ones self to work for the benefit of all sentient beings (by not keeping anything for one's self), as well as swearing off of attachments.

It is the realm of the spirit and psyche that Buddhism traverses; to understand only on a one-dimensional level of the material is to be trapped in samsara.


Edited by harlan (12/07/05 11:13 AM)

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#211188 - 12/07/05 11:34 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

Well, I swore off this thread...but Butterfly Palm stroked my ego sufficiently to come back.

Since I'm not a monk, can you recite this 'vow of poverty' and explain it? I doubt it means to swear to be poor. I suspect it is an ancillary promise to ones self to work for the benefit of all sentient beings (by not keeping anything for one's self), as well as swearing off of attachments.

It is the realm of the spirit and psyche that Buddhism traverses; to understand only on a one-dimensional level of the material is to be trapped in samsara.





The vow of poverty as I understand it (Correct me if I'm wrong) is to personally own only your robes and a bowl. The rest is the temples. I do not know of the Shaolin have abandoned this vow in the recent (last 50 years) history. It is a forced parting with the material world for those who have just entered the temple, making it easier for them to focus if they aren't thinking about their "things".

I don't think the vow itself is a one dimensional thing, I think its more of like a double blind protection. It keeps the leader of the Abbey/Monestary from growing greedy and rich off of the donations to the temple. Of course I agree, it probably has a metaphoric prominence with the addressing of giving things unto the One thousand and one beings.

I am not sure about the exact Vow in the Shaolin Temple of Ch'en that was the head of this post, I know it historically (As in 200 or so years ago) but as of this day and age I am absolutely lost. If someone can find it, please post it. I'll search for it myself once I throw this up.



Note : This is the only thing I can find so far that lists the Vows that a Monestatic Order Takes : http://users.rcn.com/chicagobuddha/programs/dharmaworker.htm

Its down the way a bit. It says :
Vow of Poverty
Vow of Selfless Service
Vow of Community Life
Vow of Humility; and
Vow of Boundless Heart

Edit : Another Site that talks about the Vow of Poverty and some other vows : http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=122

Edit : Another Site that Mentions the Vow of Poverty : http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/schools-three-vehicles.shtml


Edited by phoenixsflame (12/07/05 12:05 PM)
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#211189 - 12/07/05 12:28 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
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This is the better site:

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/schools-three-vehicles.shtml

It really depends on the person, and the context. I'm new to all of this, but my gut instinct tells me that a 'vow of poverty' is meant to bring about an inner state of being that fosters compassion, and recognizes attachments. It begins the work of becoming. But Buddhism has always changed (represented by the 84,000 Mahasiddhas); Buddhist teachings/practices are specific to person, time and place.

On a basic level, this practice of poverty is compassion. On a different level, it is about seeing attachments to things, and leads to abandoning ego/self. At a certain point, as one travels towards non-duality, there is no vow...because on a deep level one understands that there is no poverty...no dichotomy between self and other.

Actualized compassion.

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#211190 - 12/07/05 12:49 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
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Quote:

This is the better site:

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/schools-three-vehicles.shtml

It really depends on the person, and the context. I'm new to all of this, but my gut instinct tells me that a 'vow of poverty' is meant to bring about an inner state of being that fosters compassion, and recognizes attachments. It begins the work of becoming. But Buddhism has always changed (represented by the 84,000 Mahasiddhas); Buddhist teachings/practices are specific to person, time and place.

On a basic level, this practice of poverty is compassion. On a different level, it is about seeing attachments to things, and leads to abandoning ego/self. At a certain point, as one travels towards non-duality, there is no vow...because on a deep level one understands that there is no poverty...no dichotomy between self and other.

Actualized compassion.




Of course, but that actualized compassion is a much higher state of mind than most people ever achieve. Let me put it into a different way.

Even without the Vow, doesn't what they are doing take away from the concept of No Attachment? Usage of objects is fine, but from what I've read they're approaching existance in luxury (The cars are not just something to get around, they're expensive and beyond the point of usage, into luxury)

Does that not go against trying to rid oneself of attachments, and/or approach greed?

These are things that the lay person are told to avoid, should not the monestatic order, that which devotes their entire life to the precepts (not the vows of monestatic order) of the Buddhism shy away from?

I can see your point about the Vows, I was just using it as an example of the "extreme" forms of taking on the precepts.

But, I think even at a more basic level, it seems to be turning the Temple into a Corporation, a business on the heirarchal level. The monks who do not have any association with the movie studio, the demonstrations, the website, the paid trainning seminars, or the administration of any of these may have no influence by them, or they may be the working force (The Business Model being : Leadership/Administration/Working Force) or worse.

I am not against modernization in the least, I think that to understand and interface with the world all must change to cope. But, there is a difference between simple modernization and turning religion into business.

Harlan, not pertaining to Modernization, but to the actual incorporating of the Temple. Does it violate Buddhist Precepts? In your opinion.
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#211191 - 12/07/05 12:52 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
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IS everything as it seems? I'm not Buddhist, and am ignorant, and don't understand the 'precepts'...so reserve an opinion on the actions of others.

Tell me, can you ride around in a car and not own it?

Don't forget about faith...the old story of the woman and the dog's tooth...

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#211192 - 12/07/05 12:55 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
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Quote:

IS everything as it seems? I'm not Buddhist, and am ignorant, and don't understand the 'precepts'...so reserve an opinion on the actions of others.




Ok then...

Quote:

Tell me, can you ride around in a car and not own it?




Of course. However, that isn't the point. I own a car, I am a buddhist. The point I was trying to make, was its not about the owning of a car by a temple, these are needed devices. It was the owning of a car, by an abbot that was far beyond the standard of a luxury vehicle even by american standards.
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#211193 - 12/07/05 01:04 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
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Okay...since you need an answer:

I think that it is understood that a monk or abbot does not 'own' anything of value. All material items, bought or donated, are part of the monastary's holdings. The abbot does not owe them, but approves the use/disposal of items as necessary for the work of a particular lineage or tradition.

Protecting the assets of the lineage is prudent, especially during changing times (and that would certainly seem to apply to the current situation in China)...and is done according to the times. In a sense, the abbot is protecting the Dharma by protecting the assets...and that is his difficult job as a leader.

I don't see abuse, but that may be my naivete/idealism.

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#211194 - 12/07/05 01:15 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
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Quote:

Okay...since you need an answer:

I think that it is understood that a monk or abbot does not 'own' anything of value. All material items, bought or donated, are part of the monastary's holdings. The abbot does not owe them, but approves the use/disposal of items as necessary for the work of a particular lineage or tradition.

Protecting the assets of the lineage is prudent, especially during changing times (and that would certainly seem to apply to the current situation in China)...and is done according to the times. In a sense, the abbot is protecting the Dharma by protecting the assets...and that is his difficult job as a leader.

I don't see abuse, but that may be my naivete/idealism.




Allright, thanks. Thats all I was looking for. An actual opinion.
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#211195 - 12/07/05 10:01 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Good thing you were just planting a tree in -6 celcius and not "watering" it.

And Harlan, I am sorry, I didn't know you have an ego.

One, even a Shaolin monk, can ride around in a luxurious car, private airplane, yatch, use cell-phones and NOT be 'attached' to them, not seeing them as 'objects of desire' These are just modern means which just happened to be currently available. Are you saying that the Abbot should walk to Beijing from SongShan; and use smoke signals for communication?

I do get your point of course that an ordinary car and a cheap cell-phone will do. Like I said, as a Buddhist myself, I still think it is their call.

I don't care much what other Buddhists do or don't do. I do not see the Abbot of Shaolin Temple as Catholics see their Pope.
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#211196 - 12/07/05 10:36 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
phoenixsflame Offline
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Quote:

Good thing you were just planting a tree in -6 celcius and not "watering" it.

And Harlan, I am sorry, I didn't know you have an ego.

One, even a Shaolin monk, can ride around in a luxurious car, private airplane, yatch, use cell-phones and NOT be 'attached' to them, not seeing them as 'objects of desire' These are just modern means which just happened to be currently available. Are you saying that the Abbot should walk to Beijing from SongShan; and use smoke signals for communication?

I do get your point of course that an ordinary car and a cheap cell-phone will do. Like I said, as a Buddhist myself, I still think it is their call.

I don't care much what other Buddhists do or don't do. I do not see the Abbot of Shaolin Temple as Catholics see their Pope.




No of course not, the Abbot of the Shaolin Temple doesn't have as cool of a hat as the pope does.

and of course not. I mentioned that in the previous post, that they are modern needs. I just don't think it is such a wise course for anyone who wants to life free of desire to purchase things of desire. Kind of ye old oxymoronic catch 22.

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#211197 - 12/08/05 01:17 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Foolsgold Offline
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Quote:

One, even a Shaolin monk, can ride around in a luxurious car, private airplane, yatch, use cell-phones and NOT be 'attached' to them, not seeing them as 'objects of desire' These are just modern means which just happened to be currently available. Are you saying that the Abbot should walk to Beijing from SongShan; and use smoke signals for communication?




Well, I think there are things that you can't have without wanting to have them. Who buys a yacht that doesn't care about money? I understand that it offers enjoyment, but there are cheaper ways and money can be used for better things.

My opinion: It's a good thing that the precepts of Buddhism are not dependent on a centralized location.
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#211198 - 12/08/05 05:05 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Foolsgold]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Is the abbot buying yachts with the extra income? I can see decent cars (an Acura is understandable, but a Mustang is out of the question), decent cell phones (they don't need the $200 razr phone, but the cheapo I have just plain sucks, so something in between), and some other modern conveniences like computers, but there are limits to what is "necessary" as opposed to what is just extravagant.

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#211199 - 12/08/05 07:54 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
harlan Offline
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Everything you see is an illusion. Everything you see is a reflection of your inner state. Do YOU see greed, attachment, poor judgement? Examine yourself. That is really more important.

Added later: BTW, I don't mean to infer that if one sees greed that one is greedy, etc. It isn't that simplistic.

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#211200 - 12/08/05 08:45 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
trevek Offline
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I don't see anything wrong with monks taking degrees. Weren't monasteries in all faiths centres of learning? The Christian Churches get their priests to take degrees.

Do we moan when the Shaolin Monks come to do a big action show at our local stadium? Are we just lamenting our own lost innocence and fantasy?
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#211201 - 12/08/05 11:31 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: trevek]
phoenixsflame Offline
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Not bemoaning the degree's, I think further education is a very important thing. Business... Eh, well at least they're learning something. I think psychology would be a better route for a Monk, or anyone but.. Takes a lot longer.

And I don't think it has anything to do with a loss of innocence/fantasy for me. It was more a rhetorical worry, at one point the monestary was very remote, removed from civilization. Coming from an anthropological/sociological point of view. Any group that has a sudden influx of technology/money/communication has a "cultural revolution" in which the traditionally held values become out-moded and abandoned if not permenantly than for a generation or so. (The generation coming after grows up with these devices/conviences and see's not the gleam of amazing newness that their parents did.)


As I've mentioned before... a lot. It doesn't effect my training, doesn't change my view on myself, or my self introspection. I was just curious peoples opinions on it. So... Yeah, I understand what people are trying to say about the practice being personal and what not, but this isn't a discussion on personal practice. Its a discussion about a direction a monestary is going, and the choices they are making. Complete rhetoric, cognitive exercise.
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#211202 - 12/08/05 04:41 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
trevek Offline
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The question is , how sudden is it? Despite this idea that it is very remote there have been scores of westerners allowed behind it's "secret doors" over the decades to make films etc.

Anthopology is something I meant to mention. Did you ever see a documentary called 'The Goddess and the Computer', fascinating film where anthropologists devise a system of communication between the government office, rice farmers and the local monks which involves a laptop and some nifty computer work. The monks were well into the idea.

See link

http://www.buyindies.com/listings/8/3/DERE-83.html
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#211203 - 12/08/05 05:12 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: trevek]
phoenixsflame Offline
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Quote:

The question is , how sudden is it? Despite this idea that it is very remote there have been scores of westerners allowed behind it's "secret doors" over the decades to make films etc.

Anthopology is something I meant to mention. Did you ever see a documentary called 'The Goddess and the Computer', fascinating film where anthropologists devise a system of communication between the government office, rice farmers and the local monks which involves a laptop and some nifty computer work. The monks were well into the idea.

See link

http://www.buyindies.com/listings/8/3/DERE-83.html




Hmm./.. I never saw that, but now I will have too. It sounds very interesting.

Of course its not a sudden change that the western culture is reaching them. Thats although a good point, is only half of the picture I was trying to present. Look at it this way, of course Westerners could go in there and make movies. They were there for a short (3-4 months at least, 5-8 months at most) period of time and then life returned to normal.

However, we're looking at it now, as a permenant change. Not just of people being able to visit, but millions of people able to communicate on a regular basis with these Monks, and these monks able to view the Western world without much restriction (The internet is a very open thing, although China is trying to restrict its abilities, Yahoo is the only company that has completely given in to blocking all anti-chinese/communistic data. Google denounced it, as did Time Warner)
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#211204 - 12/08/05 11:44 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Without being frivolous or funny (believe me I've tried):-

While everything changes, nothing is truly lost?
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#211205 - 12/09/05 01:48 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Things aren't really lost when nobody is looking for them.

Things simple are...including history. anything else is perception.

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#211206 - 12/09/05 03:10 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

Things aren't really lost when nobody is looking for them.

Things simple are...including history. anything else is perception.





That's the thing. Phoenix is 'looking' for the (perceived?) 'lost of innocence' of the monks when surrrounded by the trappings of decadent modernity.

And a degree course in Business? where profit is king?

I thought history is nothing more than the educated perception of its students?
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#211207 - 12/09/05 07:13 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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I see where other people are coming from. A Buddhist "monk" with a degree in Business Admin??? That does sound fishy. I'm just saying, let's just give the monks a chance with this and see where they are going with it.

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#211208 - 12/09/05 08:52 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
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btw, other belief institutions face the same modernization problems:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060977612/002-9235807-8896045?v=glance&n=283155

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#211209 - 12/09/05 09:22 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
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Not exactly the same thing, considering that book is a novel/satire.
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#211210 - 12/09/05 09:34 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
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A Buddhist monk with an MBA isn't novel or satirical? lol

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#211211 - 12/09/05 09:36 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
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ha :insert rolleyes gremlin:


Edited by JoelM (12/09/05 09:41 AM)

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#211212 - 12/09/05 09:42 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I'm familiar with the 'clapping with one hand' thing....but,

"Ha" ?
Is that like laughing with one lip?

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#211213 - 12/09/05 09:45 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
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It's a sarcastic laugh to acknowledge that someone made a joke, but that it wasn't funny.

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#211214 - 12/09/05 10:16 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
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ok. {shhh, lets keep it a secret}

back to topic:
Monks with 'call waiting' and stock options...hmmm. Far cry from the Shaolin Monks that defeated a thug army for the Emperor and didn't want any compensation in return.

You realize after monks start making money, they will need to protect it right? That means guns. luckily, people will be less likely to shoot a monk since they wear hunter's orange.

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#211215 - 12/09/05 12:46 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
phoenixsflame Offline
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Butterfly of Doom
Quote:

Without being frivolous or funny (believe me I've tried):-

While everything changes, nothing is truly lost?


------------


That's the thing. Phoenix is 'looking' for the (perceived?) 'lost of innocence' of the monks when surrrounded by the trappings of decadent modernity.

And a degree course in Business? where profit is king?

I thought history is nothing more than the educated perception of its students?




I'm glad you noticed the quote. I've used this quote for years. Its the fusion of two statements that I've heard over the years and saw them in a graphic novel by the hand of Neil Gaiman.

"The phoenix is the only thing to rise and never descend, and while everything changes. Nothing is truly lost."

The reason I brought this whole topic up is out of curiousity to see how people believe, see what they think about this.

I personally think it sucks, but the fact of the matter is. These monks will continue on their choosen path. While the face of their buddhism may change, it doesn't change buddhism. I do not want to see the traditional Shaolin destroyed or askewed.. It breaks my heart, because of some long standing idealism I have attributed to the Monestatic Orders... But, those monestatic orders are extreme's unto themselves... It only goes to show you, that one extreme will lead to another. (From great aseticism, to consumerism.)

I think that a Business degree for a monk is oxymoronic, however. I think that the furthering education of the monks on the society in which they are now being thrust is a huge issue.

Written history is the word of those who survived. Taken seriously any historic research is biased in the face of those who wrote it.

The kind of "history" that I think we face is the fact that there will be two histories written about everything. Those who agree with the act/decision and those who disagree. Somewhere inbetween we can find reality.

You are right, I am looking for something, I wouldn't call it so much a loss of innocence, because the monks have not been "naive" or "sheltered" for fifty years. More a loss of humility, even up until recent history there was a (false?) modesty attributed to them. The kind of humble nature that I think is key in a monestatic Buddhist order, less they become to much like their Western Counterparts who in modern history have become more and more opulent and decadent.



Ed Morris
Quote:

ok. {shhh, lets keep it a secret}

back to topic:
Monks with 'call waiting' and stock options...hmmm. Far cry from the Shaolin Monks that defeated a thug army for the Emperor and didn't want any compensation in return.

You realize after monks start making money, they will need to protect it right? That means guns. luckily, people will be less likely to shoot a monk since they wear hunter's orange.





But, the Shaolin Monks who defeated the thug army for the emperor and asked not for compensation unfortunately have had barely any influence on their counter-parts of modern age for centuries. It is unfortunate, but to be completely honest we can see the slow and waxing movement towards this inevitable end.

And yes, one of the factors that struck me as unsavoiry was the simple fact that once someone gets money. Establishment, Temple, Corporation, Religion or not. They begin to covet it.

The Tibetan Church, the Dalai Lama's organization has billions of dollars at its displosal. There have been attempted imbezzlements and fraud.

The Catholic Church... Well, we'll just say they don't have the best track record on not spending money wisely.

Personal or Incorporated, Money causes problems. This means less time focusing on the balancing of nondualistic thinking, and more time focusing on balancing the check book.

Again.

Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.

In the end, even if the temple is destroyed as we know it today. Somewhere in the future, decades or centuries later. There will be someone, even if its only one person who has recieved the words of one person before , and one person before, etc. Will remember the actual spirit in which the Temple was founded.

Even if it comes down to no one remembering a single thing about Buddhism, or the Shaolin monks, or the Ch'en Province, or the Zen Temples in Japan/China anywhere...

Someone will sit beneath a tree, or a water-fall. They will tap their chin and look around and think. "This isn't right..."

And once again the cycle will begin again.

That is, in and of itself the source of both my distress and my comfort. For, although I know that given time all things will return to the balance. It distresses and saddens me that it seems that those who once expounded on breaking the cycle and freeing themselves from this cycle of suffering and embracing the Samma/Right ways...

Now is leaning the opposite direction, it just leads momentum to that which we are trying to free ourselves from, Buddhist or Not.
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#211216 - 12/09/05 05:17 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
trevek Offline
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Was the monks refusal of a reward from the emperor really modesty or humility or was it shrewd. Didn't they get a mega huge reward of some kind anyway (land rights or something)? That and they kept their street cred (or mountain path cred).
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#211217 - 12/09/05 05:28 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
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PP, seems to me that you are all over the map. Modernization does not equate to corruption. Actually, I think the word 'corruption' is pretty interesting, and would be good for a Buddhist to contemplate. Accepting corruption as a natural part of existance would seem to be part of the first Nobel truth. All things are in a constant state of corruption.

As for the quote/signature line: I agree completely.

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#211218 - 12/09/05 10:11 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
Foolsgold Offline
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Interesting that you would classify "corruption" as a part of nature.

Would you say the same for the supernatural?
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#211219 - 12/09/05 11:55 PM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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First off, I want to know how many monks are getting their MBA? That's important because even a nonprofit org needs a business manager. The catholic church is a prime example of that. Even though Buddhists don't have "tithes" from its followers, it does have income from the donations of followers, and the problem happens at the higher levels or in larger congregations/sanghas, where there is alot more money to manage. In a material sense, there is no problem with what's happening to these Buddhists. There can be a spiritual problem if they let greed get to them.

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#211220 - 12/10/05 02:38 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
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Trevek : To my knowledge, they gained no reward. They just kept the Temple grounds upon which they trained.

Quote:

PP, seems to me that you are all over the map.




I was mixing both the thoughts I was having and my opinion. I tried to infuse more of my actual feeling into it, rather than just simple rhetorical questioning.. The first half was my thoughts on the money aspect, the second on my signature. Sorry if that was all over the map as you put it, but.. It all is the same thought.




Modernization does not equate to corruption.




Nor did I say it did. I said, and I quote. "Money causes problems" and "It distresses and saddens me that it seems that those who once expounded on breaking the cycle and freeing themselves from this cycle of suffering and embracing the Samma/Right ways..."

I do say money leads to corruption, as does power over many people. But, those are obvious statements.


Quote:

Actually, I think the word 'corruption' is pretty interesting, and would be good for a Buddhist to contemplate.





Quote:

Accepting corruption as a natural part of existance would seem to be part of the first Nobel truth. All things are in a constant state of corruption.




I think you confuse Entropy and Corruption. Corruption is the rot of negative emotions/actions/energy resting undischarged from the heart/soul of a being, be it corruption from the stereotypical Good and Evil, or corruption of an ideal... entropy is the decay of energy/conciousness/matter as it moves through reality. Entropy effects all things, but it does not mean they are corrupted. Things can face entropy and still be pure in what they are until the point that there is no atom left in existance.

And acceptance of corruption as apart of the First Noble Truth? While I think corruption creates Dukkha, I do not think it is an inevitable part of existance. I think it is inevitable so long as humans and/or other sentient creatures cling to the false aspirations of life... (Second, and Third Noble Truths) We will face corruption, because Samma isn't attained (Fourth Noble Truth) In the end it does lead back to those doesn't it?

I think supernaturally (In response to Foolsgold, who asked the question of Harlan, but I'm going to respond to anywho.) things are just energy. Thus, they would be effected in the same manner. We just don't understand it in a way that is perfectly explainable yet, or ever will be. You can't explain enlightenment, nor should you be able too. Does it not follow that some things should not follow this route as well?

But, back to the topic at hand. I can't speak for Harlan, but I think corruption is something only self aware entities can succumb too. And entropy? Well... There is no such thing in this world as an absolute, so I'm sure something exists that does not succumb to entropy, besides the entropy itself. Depending on how far your belief in the supernatural goes, we could exist upon an Astral/BiDimensional plane in which only this part of us succumbs to entropy, and we return to the "source" to store our memories/experiences and go off to the next adventure in the "reality" we all know and love.

Just some thought on that.

Note : For anyone with questions on the Four Noble Truths, a good website I've enjoyed is : www.buddhanet.net they have a lot of great information. Even some audiofiles of people speaking and all kinds of amazing things. A good source indeed for information.
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#211221 - 12/10/05 04:44 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I just read in a local newspaper that the Abbot is starting a project along the lines of the American Idol featuring MA masters.

That should be interesting. Do you all think he or his monks secretly lurk around here?
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#211222 - 12/10/05 05:05 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I don't know if they lurk here or not, maybe they do. That MA "Master" thing is starting to cross the line. I'm beginning to agree with the others. Perhaps in a few years, things will settle down and the temple will be a place of religious study and meditation again, perhaps not, but I'm seeing that the money is going to their heads.

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#211223 - 12/10/05 07:39 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
To PP: forgive my ignorance. I am, after all, uneducated on the entire topic. My reasoning is flawed, and my old brain...tired. So, I pose questions myself...not exactly responding to what you say but kinda circumabulating...to learn from the feedback from others.

I see your distinction between corruption=rot and entropy=decay as one of semantics and preferred associations. There is nothing inherently distasteful about corruption/rot to me...it is.

"What makes an action good or bad?
Not how it looks, nor whether it is big or small,
But the good or evil motivation behind it"

"...People who early in life renounced all worldly activities may be found busily piling riches and provisions at the end. Others start out teaching and explaining the Dharma but end up as hunters, thieves or robbers. Learned monastic preceptors who in their youth kept all the Vinaya vows may in their old age beget many children. On the other hand, there are also many people who spend all their earlier years doing only wrong but who, in the end, devote themselves entirely to practising the holy Dharma and either attain accomplishment or, if not, at least by being on the path when they die go on th higher and higher rebirths.

Whether someone appears to be good or bad just at present, therefore, is but a momentary impression that has no permanence or stability whatsover."

-The Words of My Perfect Teacher, by Patrul Rinpoche

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#211224 - 12/10/05 09:55 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: ButterflyPalm]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

I just read in a local newspaper that the Abbot is starting a project along the lines of the American Idol featuring MA masters.

That should be interesting. Do you all think he or his monks secretly lurk around here?




Of course they do. Are you kidding me? They know we're the cream of the crop and they're looking to bring us into the fold. They want to exploit our amazing knowledge and greatness...

I really have to ask though, are you serious about the Martial aRtists American Idol done by this abbot? I would like to think of it as a joke, but ...
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While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211225 - 12/10/05 09:56 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

To PP: forgive my ignorance. I am, after all, uneducated on the entire topic. My reasoning is flawed, and my old brain...tired. So, I pose questions myself...not exactly responding to what you say but kinda circumabulating...to learn from the feedback from others.

I see your distinction between corruption=rot and entropy=decay as one of semantics and preferred associations. There is nothing inherently distasteful about corruption/rot to me...it is.

"What makes an action good or bad?
Not how it looks, nor whether it is big or small,
But the good or evil motivation behind it"

"...People who early in life renounced all worldly activities may be found busily piling riches and provisions at the end. Others start out teaching and explaining the Dharma but end up as hunters, thieves or robbers. Learned monastic preceptors who in their youth kept all the Vinaya vows may in their old age beget many children. On the other hand, there are also many people who spend all their earlier years doing only wrong but who, in the end, devote themselves entirely to practising the holy Dharma and either attain accomplishment or, if not, at least by being on the path when they die go on th higher and higher rebirths.

Whether someone appears to be good or bad just at present, therefore, is but a momentary impression that has no permanence or stability whatsover."

-The Words of My Perfect Teacher, by Patrul Rinpoche




And this is my cue. Enjoy folks.
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While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#211226 - 12/10/05 11:25 AM Re: Hmm. Modernization... [Re: phoenixsflame]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
MA Masters American Idol style; that's what the newspaper report said.

I suppose all who consider themslves masters will go for audition and the finalists will get voted on. It should be fun to see 'masters' crying and what if a fight brought out between a contestant and the judges who, presumably, should also be martial artists? a Simon Cowell of the MA world!!!!

Man, I can hardly wait.
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I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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