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#210888 - 12/03/05 02:24 PM Cutting Kicks
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I was told recently that there are several styles out there that do a form of the cutting kick that I was introduced to in the style of karate I practice. I would say that there are probably no really different techniques in various styles, just slight modifications to them.

I was wondering if others could provide info on this or similar techniques?

As a point of discussion, I'll give a description of the technique that we use, where and why:

Back Cutting Kick

The cutting kick that we use is not the same as the one that might be inferred by MT. The point is less to do damage and more to unbalance, using the natural weakness of the stance an attacker might be in. The back in this description is also used to describe where YOU as the user of the technique will hopefully be when doing it correctly with respect to the attacker.

Generally, one must understand that weakness in a stance falls in several directions, or planes, that are off-axis from the plane of attack. Stength and support for structural integrity to launch a technique would generally lie along the same axis as the attack, especially in the case of a linear attack.

For instance if an attacker is in an orthodox fighting stance, left leg forward and facing you, weakness would reside in 90 and 45 degree angles to the plane of his attack. Essentially to his sides and not in front or behind him.

If the attack was a right front kick, you could parry this with your lead left hand and do a cutting kick to the back of the attker's kicking foot just before, or just as it lands...sending the foot to the side to unbalance the attacker.

The key here is to remember that you are not stopping the attacker's momentum, but want it to continue so that you can capitalize on the time it takes for the attacker to recover his balance, while you have maintained yours.

The cutting kick would consist of kicking to the back of the attakers foot toward the achilles tendon and kicking upward and at a 45 degree angle to the direction the foot is pointing. The kick is a snapping one and will require the presence of your body weight in the kick..in this case with a twist of the hip and a slight leaning back as you parry the kick to lend energy into the leg doing the technique.

Once done correctly, the opponent would fall, but even done slightly incorrectly, the opponent's back is exposed and thus allows you time to counter.

Forward Cutting Kick
For a right reverse punch as an attack, a forward cutting kick would be appropriate if you can obtain proper timing. This still uses similar mechanics and references the weakness in your opponent's stance, but needs a different target area to unbalance the oppoent.

In this case, a right cross would be the technique and would necessitate having it parried, inward...not to the outside of the opponent's body. If this can be accomplished, you will find that the opponent has over committed to the punch via lack of impact and so has his torso presented over his lead left leg...which is stopping his hip torque present in the punch.

Now, if you can parry the punch...lean back slightly and and use your left leg to impact at the knee or just above it on the attacker's left leg, kicking at a 45 degree angle out to the side of his stance, you will free up the hip torque in that leg and will help his own momentum carry him over and unbalancing him.

I hope this stuff isn't too technical, but wanted to be specific.

Thanks for any help.

-B

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#210889 - 12/03/05 04:17 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
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Good stuff, Brad!

I have breifly discussed buckles in AKK before, I think they are the closest analog to your cutting kicks.

They work on a similar principle, 45 degree unbalancing to the opponent's momentum, although they can also be used when the opponent is not dynamically moving.

If you envision the opponent (feet apart), standing in the middle of a clock along the 3-9 axis (he is facing 6), your buckle would travel along the 7-1 or 8-2 axis. This will force weight onto the opponent's opposite leg, and often forces the torso forward as well.

Buckles are typically done with the back of your leg, specifically the area behind your knee. You impact the side of the opponent's kneecap with your leg bent, so that their knee fits directly into the pocket behind your knee. By forcefully driving your leg back on a 45 degree axis AND straightening your leg, it will both knock his leg back and straighten (possibly breaking) his knee.

As this technique is done with your back mostly to the opponent, you are probably thinking "when in the heck would you want to do that?"

I have had greatest success with this when the opponent is attempting to circle around you. If you time the buckle to impact right as his foot hits the floor, it can be very effective.

I gotta take the wife to dinner, but I will try to discuss the "looping downward Roundhouse Kick" when I get back. Not exactly a cutting kick, either, but vaguely related.

Now everybody yell for Brad to do a post on stop kicks!!!!
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#210890 - 12/03/05 04:24 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Great post!
A friend has shown me exactly what you are talking about...it looked very effective.
The only philosophical difference which I'm familiar with is in the area targeted. The target tends to be the side of the knee (from inside or outside) using the instep. It's impractical to train this way of course unless you want students coming to class in walkers. The timing is as you describe it.

another that I have trained are sweeps. again, same basic timing and body positioning as you described, but the target area is either side of the foot using your sole/blade. since it is tageting an area further away from the center of gravity (just below the ankle), it takes less power to give the same effect....this is particularly important for in-close fighting where you have less distance that your foot can travel - generating less power. Also, less distance means less reaction time (for both fighters), so follow up has to be almost at the same time.

In sport application, I've seen sweeps/leg takedowns and feigns applied very effectively and are often key to scoring.

Fun stuff!

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#210891 - 12/03/05 04:26 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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ooo...I forgot about buckles! those are great. theres even more than a few in Goju kata. good one Matt.

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#210892 - 12/03/05 07:29 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
And Ed, you're right about sweeps. This would be a similar technique acting in the same area of utility.

The sweep, however, as you noted is generally set up for very close range and usually means that you are more or less perpendicular to, or parallel with, the attacker (from my experience). Basically in front of him or just to his side.

This makes the sweep a brilliant technique if you are straight on and catch the opponent's lead foot as he sets down with his body weight on it. However, at an angle to the attack from the opponent where you might have to cover 1-2 feet in distance, a cutting kick makes a nice addition to these knock down techniques.

For example, you slip a front kick...you are one foot away from the kicking foot as it plants behind you and two feet away from the back, supporting foot of the attacker at maybe 40-45 degrees to either foot. Just a little too far for a sweep, but a cutting kick now begs to be used to knock the opponent down.

It's all good.

-B

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#210893 - 12/03/05 07:29 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by Butterfly -

Quote:

If the attack was a right front kick, you could parry this with your lead left hand and do a cutting kick to the back of the attker's kicking foot just before, or just as it lands...sending the foot to the side to unbalance the attacker.




And that sounds fairly nice and polite. But that carrying action can make the attacker's foot roll onto it's side as he lands. Remember that his whole body weight is now coming down on that same 45 degree axis.....*SNAP* goes the ankle.

High grip soled shoes or uneven terrain can make that a very painful, debilitating landing for the opponent.
_________________________
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#210894 - 12/03/05 08:27 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Matt,

You're right...but why was the guy kicking me? And yes, in practice one can roll the ankle. I have had it done to me...and have done it to others (mucho apologies).

The other point that should be brought up, BTW, outside of the technique itself, is the utility of the cutting kick, or a sweep, or a throw...whereby, a fast retreat is offered instead of forced contact and continued strikes while potentially others can come to the aid of the attacker...and not you.

Downing an opponent to get away and not continued fighting is valid.

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#210895 - 12/03/05 08:40 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Just thought of another. radical as this technique sounds, I've seen it not only demonstrated, but used in full contact sparring with pretty dangerous looking effect.
Full body scissor sweep and leg scissor sweep - everyone is familiar with the leg scissor takedown and the risk involved in pulling it off (since it puts yoursef on the ground before your opponent.)
The full body scissor is a hop in the air, kicking one leg out from the outside while the other leg cresent kicks to the inside...with enough hip power you could turn someone of equal weight literally upside down landing them on their neck. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I haven't practiced it much, but I mention it as another fun one to add to the list.

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#210896 - 12/03/05 09:15 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
When I was in Austria, I learned a type of sweep that could be considered a cross between a cutting kick & a traditional sweep. In fact, it was closer to the cutting kick than a sweep. The primary difference was that it was used on the attack as the opponent retreated.

The warning was that the "sweep" couldn't be too high on the leg (upper calf, knee or thigh) because that would constitute an illegal (competition) kick. The point of contact was behind the ankle/Achilles tendon area. It also had to utilize the instep & not any part of the shin.

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#210897 - 12/03/05 09:18 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: hedkikr]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

The primary difference was that it was used on the attack as the opponent retreated.





Hedkikr,

Can you be more specific in how an opponent would retreat and what would be the set up for such a technique?

Thank you, intersting.

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#210898 - 12/03/05 11:27 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Just a side note. Those that like to find technique in kata will find the cutting kick,as Butterfly has described it's application, in Passai and Ananku as well as others.

Remember that finding them in the kata is one thing. You have to actually do some two man drills to really appreciate the angles at which this technique becomes effective.

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#210899 - 12/04/05 12:18 AM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: BuDoc]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
cool budoc, thanks...put that in my notes for when I eventually do learn those kata.

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#210900 - 12/04/05 03:27 AM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Usually a series of punches that, @ the very least, causes the opponent's attention to focus on the punches as he back-steps. As you advance w/ your hand attack, you slip the sweep in preventing the lead leg to touch down thus making the opponent fall backwards.

Now I'll be the first to admit that sweeps are my weak point but I saw a few Austrians do it w/ impressive results.

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#210901 - 12/04/05 11:47 AM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

You're right...but why was the guy kicking me? And yes, in practice one can roll the ankle. I have had it done to me...and have done it to others (mucho apologies).




Heh. Sorry, I did not make myself clear there at all. I was not questioning the the morality of the technique at all. Anyone that attacks someone unprovoked gets what they deserve. I was merely pointing put that the cutting kick has a good chance of breaking someone's ankle, so people didn't confuse this with a sweep.

Sorry for the confusion.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#210902 - 12/04/05 09:34 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Matt, no problem....hey, when you said the guy was circling you and you would use a buckle...how? And what would you look for, especially if this is done with your back facing the opponent?

I mean, how do you set it up? Or how do you allow the opponent to set it up?

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#210903 - 12/06/05 08:51 AM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
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Sorry, I missed this one for a bit!

Actually, I set it up exactly the same way I would set up any normal side kick - which is basically what the buckle is, just very low.

And in the same way that I would try to wait for the opponent's weight to shift to one leg or the other before launching the sidekick (for maximum unbalancing), I wait for the opponent to set weight on the leg nearest to the one I will use for the buckle.

I mostly use a rear crossing step to launch the buckle. If I am going to use my right leg, I will quickly step behind it with my left leg, then shoot it (right leg) out forcefully into the opponent's leg as he steps down.

You do not have your back to the opponent as you set it up, only in the transition and the impact. Hope that made sense.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#210904 - 12/09/05 05:56 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
MAGon Offline
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Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Brad: Good stuff!!

Quote:

The point is less to do damage and more to unbalance, using the natural weakness of the stance an attacker might be in.... Once done correctly, the opponent would fall, but even done slightly incorrectly, the opponent's back is exposed and thus allows you time to counter.




Quite, but don't sell your technique short. One of the neat things of the cutting kick and it's variants is that if the kick fails to drop, unblance or even stagger the opponent, it can still hurt like hell!!! Big plus over the sweep, in my book.

MattJ:
Quote:

And that sounds fairly nice and polite. But that carrying action can make the attacker's foot roll onto it's side as he lands. Remember that his whole body weight is now coming down on that same 45 degree axis.....*SNAP* goes the ankle.

High grip soled shoes or uneven terrain can make that a very painful, debilitating landing for the opponent.




True, but... Brad already dealt with the issue of an actual attacker. Even in a training scenario, though, anyone not willing to accept the risk of injury has no business in a dojo! If you play tennis, the least of your risks is tennis elbow. If you ski, you risk doing a Sonny Bono. If you do Karate... *SNAP* is a real possibility. Then again, training saves you from a lot of injuries: I once caught a friend, right before he landed, with a sweep. This was after he tried to nail with with a jumping/spinning back kick. So both his feet were in the air and for once my timing was spot on. He pivoted in midair almost until he was parallel to the ground, then crashed down. I thought I saw him smack his unprotected face against the floor, and bent down to try and help... And came close to getting kicked in the face for my trouble! The fight just went on from there (Besides, he deserved to land smack on his face from trying such a dumb move, don't you think? ).

Ed_Morris:
Quote:

Full body scissor sweep and leg scissor sweep - everyone is familiar with the leg scissor takedown and the risk involved in pulling it off (since it puts yoursef on the ground before your opponent.)




I used to do this one, after one of the BBs in my old dojo had perfected it and inflicted it upon a number of us with devastating effect. You don't have to get it perfect, even if your feet and legs come close to where they need to be, the opponent is going down... HARD. But if you get it wrong not only are you vulnerable, you can wind up hurting yourself. A friend of mine who, among many other things, was for many years a succesful Judo competitor had the scissors throw as his mainstay, until it was banned from competition because of the many injuries. I haven't used it in years, and don't think I ever will. When I was younger, it was a cool move. Nowadays, it strikes me that there's a deficit in the "benefit" column when you think about Cost/Benefit.

Hedkikr:
Quote:

When I was in Austria, I learned a type of sweep that could be considered a cross between a cutting kick & a traditional sweep. In fact, it was closer to the cutting kick than a sweep. The primary difference was that it was used on the attack as the opponent retreated.

The warning was that the "sweep" couldn't be too high on the leg (upper calf, knee or thigh) because that would constitute an illegal (competition) kick. The point of contact was behind the ankle/Achilles tendon area. It also had to utilize the instep & not any part of the shin... Usually a series of punches that, @ the very least, causes the opponent's attention to focus on the punches as he back-steps. As you advance w/ your hand attack, you slip the sweep in preventing the lead leg to touch down thus making the opponent fall backwards.

Now I'll be the first to admit that sweeps are my weak point but I saw a few Austrians do it w/ impressive results.




It must be a European thing, because I saw a couple of fellows from the former Yugoslavia that would do a "one-two" punch combo followed by a cutting kick from the rear leg. Much more often than not they'd at least stagger the opponent. Another useful technique I managed to steal from someone better than me!
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#210905 - 12/09/05 09:06 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: MAGon]
MattJ Offline
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MAGon -

I totally agree with your post. My response that you quoted was really badly written, I was not commenting on the morality of the move at all. It was meant to be an ironic comment in reference to Brad's comment about the kick "inflicting less damage". Unfortunately, it did not come across that way at all.

Again, apologies for the confusion.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#210906 - 12/09/05 09:24 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: MattJ]
MAGon Offline
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Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Quote:

MAGon -

I totally agree with your post. My response that you quoted was really badly written, I was not commenting on the morality of the move at all. It was meant to be an ironic comment in reference to Brad's comment about the kick "inflicting less damage". Unfortunately, it did not come across that way at all.

Again, apologies for the confusion.




Oh, hey guy, apology totally unnecessary! I plead guilty in not having caught the ironic content, and therefore took it literally. In fact, from a sport Karate viewpoint, it has validity. I just thought to put in my 2 centavos worth, 'cause I found the thread interesting. But I side with Brad on the issue of contact and it's value in training.
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#210907 - 01/02/06 06:14 AM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hello

I could be wrong, but your "cutting kick" sounds very much like a judo sweep?

When I was learning Tang Soo Do we did soe judo sweeps for self defense purposes. From what I understand, we sweep right before the attacker places his lead leg foot on the ground to catch him off balance correct? Many times you can grab an arm, shoulder or hair to add to the technique. However, I could be wrong.

"Do or do not...there is no try" -Yoda
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#210908 - 01/02/06 12:30 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: TeK9]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Tek,

No...these are not sweeps. I have practiced a very little bit of judo in my time, but sweeps depend on a different mechanic and usually relay motion of the leg perpendicularly to the plane of the direction your body and leg is facing. This also uses your the knife edge of the foot and the "sweeping" motion implied by the technique's name.

A cutting kick is a kick in that the direction of the snap is in line with the leg...not perpendicular or at an angle to the line of the leg as a sweep would be. In other words, think of a front snap kick, but aimed so that the snap will bring the bottom of the foot brushing against the ground for a back cutting kick. For a front cutting kick, the height would be different, and the angle would be different...but the snap would alway be in the direction of the extended leg, using the hip to turn the leg into the proper angle, not the knee.

-B

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#210909 - 01/02/06 09:19 PM Re: Cutting Kicks [Re: butterfly]
BigRod Offline
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Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Great post butterfly!

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