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#209692 - 07/10/06 04:57 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97

I am Being Blunt again,

If anyone wants to Learn the Channan Kata's I will still tach them to you! No one hear can Prove them or disprove prove them. So I am still saying they are the real McCoy.

And I am going to keep saying it until, I meet someone who can Convince me they are not or you guys can prove to me they are not with a tape of Sokon Bushi Matsumura Doing the Real Channan's.

Avery Channan Wax Sensei

#209693 - 07/10/06 05:05 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Wax, Sensei

That was fun I had a Ball! You are not a Prune after all!
I will see U in Auggie.

Uchi Deshi Ha Ha Ha !
Matt Sommers Sensei

#209694 - 07/10/06 05:10 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
See sommers,

30 posts now it says, I am a MEMBER. Bring my 30 bucks wimp!

#209695 - 07/10/06 05:14 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
The bottom line is without specifically stating what the problems are with karate taught today no one is going to say "you know, your are right, I have no idea what I have been doing all these years" and pay upwards of $300 to fly to Washington to learn a lost kata. Avery Wax may have the means to do that, but I sure as hell don't. The statements he is making are so general he could be saying that Oyata's karate, Nagamine's karate, Hohan Soken's karate, or anyone's karate who does not have the Channan kata is junk. He may not be saying it, but thats how it comes off. Bottom line I will put my karate up against anyone's and I am sure you will do the same. And even though your karate may be more original that still doesn't mean jack unless you can put it to good use. Now if you can put it to good use is that a product of your karate, or of your own skill, or due to the teaching and training methods you use and really not because you know Channan or not. And if you don't care about pride or money and don't believe that karate can be taught through video then why not show a clip. Your not teaching anyone right, just showing a clip of it. Only by not even being willing to prove a claim you make by producing visual evidence that yes you know a kata which is radically different from the karate all of us practice then why make the claim at all. I would say not giving evidence at this point does more to tarnish the reputation of that which you do even more because of some of the claims that you make. If you know Channan good for you, if it is better than what you and all of your students have seen good for you, but have you seen what I have or many of those that post here, I think not. I'm sure you have heard the phrase "Put your money where your mouth is" or perhaps "Put up or shut up" and I think this applies here.

#209696 - 07/10/06 05:24 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: medulanet]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr Medulant,

Good Idea Boy! Let's Kumite! We should all get together and put it to the test. Hey where do you live I am going to see Al Martin Jr. in August maybe I can swing by your Dojo on the way. I will show you the Channan complete with Bunkia and Okuden or Oyo and you tell me your take on it. Or heck somebody by me a video camera send it to me before august and I will record Al Martin Jr. doing the Kata and make everyone a copy!

#209697 - 07/10/06 05:34 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Phoenix, Arizona. PM me if you want to set something up.

#209698 - 07/10/06 05:39 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad

A couple hundred bucks to see the "real" channan! In 25 years, I've paid far more for far less!

Might be put up or shut up time!


PS. It's Mr. Butterfly and Dr. Page
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

#209699 - 07/10/06 06:17 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sensei Wax,

As a preface, first, “butterfly” is an FA pseudonym or nom de web, if you like. My gender is male, but that’s not a real problem or issue. If you like, call me Brad. I honestly mean no irritation here, and it is hard to “view” how others intend to post and in what voice they write since we are communicating outside of physical and vocal cues.

So the argument as set up, again the assumption here from what I am taking from your and Mr. Sommer’s postings, is that your Karate is more “real” than someone else’s by virtue of unattenuated kata training.

If this is so, then the question becomes one of definition and measurement. How does one define “real” as opposed to “less real” or “unreal?”

This then posits that you have substantiated evidence to show that your training is more authentic than someone else’s. And then again, authentic has to be analyzed with respect to “real.” Since questions of utility have to be answered on counts for both issues. Just because something is older or has less footprints on the path, does not mean more effective or more usable, but that’s only part of the consideration here: One, authenticity—provable authenticity; and two, real—provable real, karate…whatever that means.

Now you have problems with comparison shopping, because you must know what you are comparing before making these considerations and that means knowing the instructors of those with whom you are speaking. This also means that one has a barometer to measure change with…perhaps an old document or something else to substantiate claims of change or lack thereof. This then begs the question of legitimacy which seems to be at the core of this discussion.

As I am a nobody and don’t particularly like kata or have a vested interested in studying the kata that I do know, I came to this thread out of curiosity since I have been shown some kata and would like to know what you folks talk about…and was pulled into the shallows by the same current that I think others read in this thread. To wit, that your karate is more real than someone else’s by virtue of its kata having not been changed. So, since I am not a kata guy, I wanted to see the merits of the argument, not really caring where the thread went. And what I came up with is that CXT, Ed, and Victor scored a goal in pushing the obvious: Where is the proof? GOOOOOAAAAAL!!!!!

As far as my comment about the Kool-Aid. Perhaps this is inappropriate, but if you read Mr. Sommer’s post as I did, coming from my vantage point on the sidelines of this particular game, then it reads much more like some acolyte who wishes to protect his master and smacks somewhat of cultish behavior…thus my comment.

In any case, the feeling of what has been posted here sort of goes like this: Kata = karate = utility = real. If utility is exempted, then it matters little what kata one does since it has no significance in application. If application of karate is the measurement, there a lot of good players out there who practice little to no kata, and probably not the one you have listed. Then the question of an unadulterated kata practice merits little in the consideration of real, functional karate. Or I could be mistaken. But the question of proof has still not been answered.



#209700 - 07/10/06 09:40 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: medulanet]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97

What does pm mean? do you mean see you in the afternoon? I will need your address for Mapquest my E-mail is

Looking forward to meeting you!

#209701 - 07/10/06 10:02 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: butterfly]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97

My appology for thinking you were female. I did not understand alot of the fancy words you used as I said I only Graduated the third grade it was all there was. I may not know your fancy words or the other guys physco Bable but as a Combat proven U.S. Marine that survived W.W.II being sent to Okinawa and China I do understand fighting and I will wager you some of these folks never had to fight to live or carry their blown to bits buddies across a field that looks like its burning in hell! with bombs exploding men screaming for god to take them home and the gut renching smell of bodies decaying all around you. With an enemy running and hiding in caves or behind women and children real hand to hand fighting occurs when you are out of ammo but the other guy has his. Have you ever had to fight somebody who wanted to kill you, and tried with what ever he could find then to move on to the next one you have to snap his neck or pull out his eyes with your thumbs. I have seen the other post going about blocks in real combat blocks seem to disappear all that matters is how you will devour the next movement grab the enemy and rip him apart.. Sorry got a bit carried away..

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