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#209682 - 07/10/06 02:45 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Sommers

Your missing the point--either on purpose or because your not reading thorughly.

I asked about films ONLY because claims have been advanced concerning "trust" issues and people NEVER making any sort of changes or adapations to the kata.

And since Avery seems so quick to suggest and argue that OTHER people should not "trust" thier own teachers.
Asking how he KNOWS for a fact that such changes have not been made in his own system--in the absence of positive proof like films--is very germaine.

So when you get right down to it---he is taking it on trust, just like pretty much everyone else.

But then again--its not us--its HIM that running around questioning that trust.

I just see no reason not to put his OWN reasoning/questions to HIM as well.

BTW--how could you possibly know what I or any of us have "seen?"
Since you don't know any of us--or me. Its kinda of a reach to say what I or we have "seen."

I mean how could you possibly know what I have "seen?"

Plus, hate to be the one to point it out--but if what you do looks radically differentfrom whats being taught in Okinawa--and by a couple of generations of karate-ka since WW2--then Occams Razor would suggest a rather harsh conculsion.

ie That is your stuff thats "wrong."

Not saying it is of course--just pointing out the problems with your reasoning.


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 02:52 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#209683 - 07/10/06 03:01 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
O.K. ED,

(Qoute]yup, it's a shame that you can't prove your Channan wasn't created after the Pinans. What?

here's a few thoughts: If Channan was worth keeping, even versions of it would have been wide spread. If it was to be contained as in family arts, why go to Hawaii and share it? [edit]oops, I see Victor beat me to the question

another thought, the website you give of U. Sakugawa's lineage does not mention who the father or grandfather of Ushi is.

Ed Read it again it says his Grand Father is Chosin Sakugawa!
only this is mentioned:
Quote:

"We think that the Sakugawa family served the king as counsel or samurai but that still has not been confirmed."




Also, am to understand that Ushi learned Karate on Okinawa, moved to Hawaii when he was 21, practiced on his own for 30+ years, then taught Al Martin?

Ed, Am I to Understand that Sokon Matsumura was born in 1797 Started training in 1810 at age 14 studing with Sakugawa and Kusnaku and became a Master after four years of studing Then in 1813 at age 17 became the Chief body guard for the Okinawan King and then founded Shorin Ryu in 1820 at age 23 then made trips to study in China.

sorry, but this is starting to sound like a fabricated lineage.



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#209684 - 07/10/06 03:26 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
ED,

If it was to be contained as in family arts, why go to Hawaii and share it?

That is a good Question! Why go to Hawaii at all but many Okinawan's did! For Example: Born and raised in Hawaii, Ted Tabura, Sensei began training in his Families martial arts in a backyard dojo under his cousin's tutelage. Later moving to Southern California, Ted discovered the Okinawa- te dojo headed by another Hawaii-born instructor, Shihan Gordon Diversola.
ttabura@worldblackbelt.com

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#209685 - 07/10/06 03:34 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia

asked about films ONLY because claims have been advanced concerning "trust" issues and people NEVER making any sort of changes or adapations to the kata.

And since Avery seems so quick to suggest and argue that OTHER people should not "trust" thier own teachers.

CXT,

Exactly where did Wax, Sensei post anything about other people should not trust their own teachers?
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

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#209686 - 07/10/06 03:53 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Wax Sensei,

Do you think your Kata's are better than theirs?

Do you want to teach them the Kata's

What is your purpose in dicussing this on this forum?

It my understanding that they are trying to make a fool out of you! They do not see Karate as you do they do not want to Learn from you! Just like the young Okinawans they do not care about tradition or truth. Wax Sensei this is not Karate these people are making fun and Laughing at you. They do not know Real Karate they do not want to Learn Karate! It is their Oppions only that matter to them. Please Leave this Forum, I ask you as an Uchi Deshi,
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

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#209687 - 07/10/06 04:04 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Quote:

Wax Sensei,

Do you think your Kata's are better than theirs?

NO!

Do you want to teach them the Kata's

As I already said If the show a Geniune content to Learn!

What is your purpose in dicussing this on this forum?

I am Tired of the Secret Bull about the Channan's

It my understanding that they are trying to make a fool out of you! They do not see Karate as you do they do not want to Learn from you! Just like the young Okinawans they do not care about tradition or truth. Wax Sensei this is not Karate these people are making fun and Laughing at you. They do not know Real Karate they do not want to Learn Karate! It is their Oppions only that matter to them. Please Leave this Forum, I ask you as an Uchi Deshi,




SO! Sometimes one must sacrafice pride to teach.

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#209688 - 07/10/06 04:07 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA

Quote:

It my understanding that they are trying to make a fool out of you! They do not see Karate as you do they do not want to Learn from you! Just like the young Okinawans they do not care about tradition or truth. Wax Sensei this is not Karate these people are making fun and Laughing at you. They do not know Real Karate they do not want to Learn Karate! It is their Oppions only that matter to them. Please Leave this Forum, I ask you as an Uchi Deshi,






What?! Funny. Oh man, I am laughing my butt off now!

I was just having a good time reading through this and since I am a non-kata guy I was sort of looking at this from a more or less disinterested perspective.

But, dispite the less than congenial nature that this has turned toward, I could only read this as a question of argument structure.

Both CXT and Ed were not necessarily questioning the veracity of the instruction here, but questioning the format of the argument. You can't prove a proof with the same proof...and it all percolates down to opinion anyway. If one assumes they have the right of it, then they can poke at everyone else's direction. The others on this thread just wanted to make sure that this perception may be biased since, like religion, most everyone else thinks the other guy's wrong, and won't aim that same laser-like perception into their own instruction.

The only issue that I see, is that you have to take everything with a grain of salt, including one's own training.

And then this last part, oh my goodness! That's funny in a strange, drinking the koolaide way.

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#209689 - 07/10/06 04:22 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

It my understanding that they are trying to make a fool out of you! They do not see Karate as you do they do not want to Learn from you! Just like the young Okinawans they do not care about tradition or truth. Wax Sensei this is not Karate these people are making fun and Laughing at you. They do not know Real Karate they do not want to Learn Karate! It is their Oppions only that matter to them. Please Leave this Forum, I ask you as an Uchi Deshi,






What the.....! OK, let's try to take a dispassionate look at what has gone on here. Sensei Wax has made some claims about the knowledge of and veracity of certain kata. Others have questioned him on it, and asked for proof. So far, Sensei Wax has not really provided any, and flatly refused to offer either written or video demos of the kata in question. This would seem to not help his credibility on the issue.

Now you want him to leave the forum, because he was questioned on HIS OWN CLAIMS?

I hope I have missed something here, because that screams of some kind of odd cult mentality as Butterfly alluded to. "Real karate" people can not be questioned?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#209690 - 07/10/06 04:30 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: butterfly]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mrs. Butterfly,

Good Comment not sure I follow you though. It could be because I am old or because I only greduated the third Grade. of course school only went to the third grade when I went to school.

Can you be more simple please!

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#209691 - 07/10/06 04:40 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: MattJ]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr Matt,

Its not to late for you! I still remember the kata at least for right now! But maybe I want after I drink some coolaide and hear Voices.

My Question is since you guys think I so funny and you are all laughing is this: Did Mrs. Butterfly say she does'nt do any Kata at all or did that one slip past my Eighty nine year old grey matter as well.

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