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#209672 - 07/10/06 12:26 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Naihanchi

Hi Senseiaverywax

you know Naihanchi?

Is this the original?

Before it got seperated?or made shorter?
Does it compare to what is used now as Naihanchi 1,2,3??

http://www.shotokankata.com/The%20Tekki%20Katas.htm

Do the katas you know compare with the katas taught today?

Thanks

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#209673 - 07/10/06 12:32 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: ANDY44]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr.Andy 44,

I will teach you the Channan kata's; if you would like to learn them. What way do you currently follow?

Thanks, Avery Wax

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#209674 - 07/10/06 12:34 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
RAINY22@FASTMAIL.FM

Hi this is my email address

Heian Shodan
Heian Nidan
Heian Sandan
Heian Yondan
Heian Godan
Tekki Shodan
Tekki Nidan
Tekki Sandan
Bassai Dai
Bassai Sho
Kanku Dai
Kanku Sho
Jion
Jitte
Enpi
Gankaku

I trained in shotokan,
I do have a working knowledge of goju ryu katas
Although not much bunkia.


Edited by ANDY44 (07/10/06 12:46 PM)

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#209675 - 07/10/06 12:53 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: ANDY44]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr.Andy 44,

Yes I know Naihanchi. It is most likely the Original! It is Not the same as the Naihanchi of today. I have seen many do the current Naihanchi's they have lost most of the flow of the Kata and it has been changed from Chinese to more Japanese and added to so much that it only barely resembel's its Original self. Also there are so many versions of it done so many different ways! Most katas have been modified and added to and taken away from. Old Kata's like the ones I know are more simple and teach movement at a different pace with more time spent to perfect the movement than to do a Dance. Think about old music and New music though they are different they both have merrit to the people who like them. Young folks like New Rock & Roll Middle age folks like Old Rock & Roll Old folks like really old Rock & Roll like the Mama's and the Pappa's. Does'nt mean however that a young person can't like them too! Did'nt mean to use rock & Roll in my annalogy to make anyone mad Could be Country, Rythm & Blues, Blue grass, Etc.

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#209676 - 07/10/06 12:57 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Avery

like I asked before.

If so much has been "changed" then how, pray-tell, can anyone trust that what "you" do has not been "changed" as well????

I guess you have film from the 1950's of your teacher doing this kata?

And some means of "cross-checking" that film vs other known versions??


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 01:00 PM)

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#209677 - 07/10/06 01:08 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Mr Wax (no insult intended but I only use sensei with my own instructors),

Ignoring the changes in Okinawan karate in say the last 50 years, it is very evident that proir to that the real tradition on Okinawa is kata continually changed.

Tou'on Ryu coming from the same source as Goju Ryu is very different.

Almost all of the kata have undergone innumerable changes as time passed in the 1900's and it is only an extension of that to the past that the same occured prior to 1900.

The arts were un-documented by Okinawan tradition. There was no 'source' to prove what was right. If the instructor used different variations of the kata for different reasons, that gave students license to consider doing so in their own instructorship. If the instructor perceived a different attack the kata might have chagned to face that attack.

This has been fairly documented over the years, such as the 15 different versions of Passai, and of course that is not a complete docuemntation of what changed.

There is no reason to believe the older versions of any of those kata are more efficient or better than the newer versions. With skill and practice any technique can defeat any attack, and the goal has always been to attain skill no matter which generation.

Yet everyone assumes their version is better, that is also the history of the arts. Such assumptions make little difference, such as which are better Southrern Chinese costal arts or Northern Chinese Arts, or Burmese arts are better than Indonesian ones.

The reality is almost all of the arts contain aspects of each other, they just choose different starting points or emphasize and de emphasize the others.

No doubt some practices on Okinawa are older than others. It becomes problematical to know if they are more authentic becasue of that, or have greater value.

I appreciate the faith you evidence in your practice. But open discussion will always lead others on the quest to question, and ask.

Of course I've taught for free continiously for 29 years now and have practiced for 34.

One tries,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#209678 - 07/10/06 01:35 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Quote:

Avery

like I asked before.

If so much has been "changed" then how, pray-tell, can anyone trust that what "you" do has not been "changed" as well????


Faith and trust is the way Mr. CXT Every time you sit in a chair you have faith and trust that it will not break with you! But that trust has developed over time with you sitting in chairs and them not breaking with you has it not?

That is why I teach the kata's directly and do not put them on video or write them down its not that I am trying to keep them secret I am trying to restore trust.



I guess you have film from the 1950's of your teacher doing this kata?


No there are no Video to my Knowledge. I trust that my Sensei Al Martin Sr. taught me correctly. In my Ryu there were others beside's me and there are others now even young ones, some of whom are here watching every thing I say to you folks now. Some even challenge me on what I say. Is'nt that Correct Mr.Paul Hart and Mr.Sommers and Mr. Hidden Fist and mabe even old Multiversed too!

And some means of "cross-checking" that film vs other knowen versions??




There are no kata on tape or films!

There is an agreement between Sensei and Deshi not to Change; take away from or add to the Kata! I can say that this system of Matsumura Shorin Ryu is still being taught today as it was in the 1950's. I have Talked to my Sensei's youngest son Al Martin Jr. many times since my first initial post here Thanks to Sensei Paul Hart who is one of his student's I also Knew Paul Hart's Instructor Hanashiro Shinyei who now as Paul Hart has stated has Passed On. My Respects, On your loss agian Hart, Sensei I am going to Florida to spend two weeks with Al Martin Jr. and his Kind Family next month in August. From what I have heard Al Martin Jr. has abouth 5,979 student's between Lee, Collier, Charlotte, Sarasota, Counties.

When I come back seems I will probbably meet Paul Hart, Sensei in person as Sommers Sensei
informed me; that he was moving here to Kent Washington.

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#209679 - 07/10/06 02:05 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Avery

Ok, then follow me here.

According to your own posts things change.

Except what YOU DO.

Its possible for OTHER peoples art to suffer inncorrect things being passed down BUT NOT YOUR OWN.

Nobody else should have "faith and trust" that what they do is largely correct EXCEPT YOU.

That "I" should NOT "trust" that MY teacher taught me "correctly" but we should trust that YOUR teacher did.
And that HIS teacher taught HIM correctly.

See what I getting at?

From where I sit you seem to be exempting yourself from the same arguements and posits you make concerning everyone else and their arts and teachers.

If the questions and observations are valid--then they pretty much cut BOTH ways--cutting yourself and your teachers as well.

BTW--I am largely a goju-ka, I know the Pinan series but from a training persepctive, I could not care less as to the Channan/Pinan etc---we don't use them in our training.


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 02:21 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#209680 - 07/10/06 02:12 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yup, it's a shame that you can't prove your Channan wasn't created after the Pinans.

here's a few thoughts: If Channan was worth keeping, even versions of it would have been wide spread. If it was to be contained as in family arts, why go to Hawaii and share it? [edit]oops, I see Victor beat me to the question

another thought, the website you give of U. Sakugawa's lineage does not mention who the father or grandfather of Ushi is. only this is mentioned:
Quote:

"We think that the Sakugawa family served the king as counsel or samurai but that still has not been confirmed."




Also, am to understand that Ushi learned Karate on Okinawa, moved to Hawaii when he was 21, practiced on his own for 30+ years, then taught Al Martin?

sorry, but this is starting to sound like a fabricated lineage.

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#209681 - 07/10/06 02:35 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Quote:

Avery

Ok, then follow me here.

According to your own posts things change.

Except what YOU DO.

Its possible for OTHER peoples art to suffer inncorrect things being passed down BUT NOT YOUR OWN.

Nobody else should have "faith and trust" that what they do is largely correct EXCEPT YOU.

That "I" should NOT "trust" that MY teacher taught me "correctly" but we should trust that YOUR teacher did.
And that HIS teacher taught HIM correctly.

See what I getting at?


CXT,

I think what Wax, Sensei means is that this way is Unchanged there are no Updates at all. I as a practioner of said system understand what he is saying, you may not! You also seem a mite bit closed minded. Goju has had many updates it is not the exact style now that Miyagi Sensei taugh! Are the Kata's the same some are some are not.

BTW--I am largely a goju-ka, I know the Pinan series but from a training persepctive, I could not care less as to the Channan/Pinan etc--we don't use them in our training.


I also used to study Goju untill I met Al Martin Sr.in 1979 And now I study with his son Al Martin Jr.

Look guys, You have never seen Karate like this before it is the true old style of Sui-de. We have people from Shotokan, Goju, Isshin, Shito, Uechi, Motobu, and other systems training with us. Why is it not popular? This is my theory It is mainly taught for free! People do not usually spend time on something and take away from their families unless there is a way to make money out of it.The people that do this system do it because they love it they truely love karate. I Love this System I had a Yondan in Goju but there was something always being changed and people argueing back and forth or getting angry and going off to start their own system heck I even tried Judo. But this system suits me. I do not think Wax Sensei is trying to recruit you guys. But he does seem to want you to give up the whole the Channan's are a Secret thing! I think the second worst thing to happen to Karate is Video Tapes. You can not learn Kata from a video Tape you can mimic what you see but you can not bond with the kata.
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

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