FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 32 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
jwwmantis 2
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Chum Kiu's double Tan Sau motion
by futsaowingchun
Today at 10:08 AM
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Chum Kiu's double Tan Sau motion
by futsaowingchun
Today at 10:08 AM
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35592 Topics
432527 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
#209622 - 11/30/05 03:47 AM Pinan/Heian vs Channan
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
I heard that Chinese Channan kata probably are the origin of Pinan/Heian kata. Does anybody know these forms or have found video clips of this on the internet?

I have found this books:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1412013577.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

and these 2 videos:

http://karatethejapaneseway.com/usagi_press/channan/images/lost_channan_video_01.jpg

http://karatethejapaneseway.com/usagi_press/channan/images/lost_channan_video_02.jpg


Still searching for free material on the net..

Also wondering about Kushanku. It was said that pinan originated from kushanku. Kushanku was the name of a Chinese man who created this kata. Is Channan perhaps the ancestor of Pinan in this sence?

The knowlegde of these 'events' give me 2 possible scenarios:

1.
So I mean, the 'Chinese' more original version of Kushanku was cut into pieces --> Channan. And later, the modified 'Okinawan' version of Kushanku was cut into pieces --> Pinan (Heian)

2.
Or, was Kushanku cut up to Channan and then the Okinawans modified Kushanku and later on Mr. Itosu modified Channan into Pinan?


Hope anyone can give me some new insight on this one!

edited to fix links


Edited by MattJ (06/05/06 03:15 PM)

Top
#209623 - 11/30/05 08:50 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Wado-AJ]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
The pinan katas had more than one influence in their creation. Kusanku is an obvious one. It is said that channan is another kata that was an influence on their creation, but that kata has been lost. Apparently some people claim to have "found" it. It's possible someone still knows it somewhere, outside the orthodox styles, like that shotokan guy who wrote that book.

"Itosu Sensei turned to the students and said show us a kata. The kata that they performed was very similar to the Channan Kata that I knew, but there were some differences also. Upon asking the student what the kata was, he replied, "It is Pinan no Kata." The students left shortly after that, upon which I turned to Itosu Sensei and said, "I learned a kata called Channan, but the kata that those students just performed now was different. What is going on?" Itosu Sensei replied, "Yes, the kata is slightly different, but the kata that you just saw is the kata that I have decided upon. The students all told me that the name Pinan is better, so I went along with the opinions of the young people."

that is an excerpt from an article by Choki Motobu from 1934 that I found online.

I think Itosu created the pinan kata by taking techniques from various older kata and making them into shorter or easier kata to teach to the school children. Maybe channan had a large inlfuence, since Motobu said it looked kind of like channan, but the students didn't say which pinan kata they performed. I'm sure the kata have undergone many changes since then, since Itosu reformed them during his life probably more than once.

Off the top of my head, I know there are techniques from Kusanku in all the pinan kata. There are also techniques from Passai and Chinto, and possibly Gojushiho.

Top
#209624 - 11/30/05 10:51 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Wado-AJ]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wado

Honestly no-one really knows.

There is a lot of speculation about the Pinan kata.

With some pretty good lines of reasoning both directions.

We have some pretty good 2nd hand info that there was once a kata called "Channan" that greatly looked like the Pinan.

We know this because a converstaion was recorded with a former student of Itosu that not only knew the Channan but when he asked Itosu what kata his current students were doing---it looked very much like the Channan he was taught--Itosu said that it was Pinan something and that he changed the name to one that "young people" thought was best.

Anyones guess as to exactly what that really means.

Then again the Pinan share many things in coommen with Kusanku.

For all we know Channan was a less complex "pre" kata to Kusanku, you know a kata that shared many of the same techniques but not quite as hard--to give the student training time before they take on Kusanku.

I kinda doubt that Kusanku was "cut up" to make either the Channan or Pinan kata.

We know that (at least a case can be made) for the Channan to pre-date the Pinan kata.

And its highly unlikely that they would "cut up" Kusanku twice and get the same sort of pattern both times.

I think is more likely that Channan was an extent pre-kata to Kusanku--and there is no way to figure out if IT was a "cut up" version or not--it may well have been.
That was changed to become the Pinan kata (or at least some of them)

Since both kata would have served the same purpose of introducing techniques used in Kusanku, they would have kinda served the same purpose.

There is also the problem of just which Pinan the Channan kata look like--unlikely that the Channan was as long as all the Pinan kata put togather.

Some 2nd hand info indicates that Itsou only fully created 1 or 2 of the Pinan and that the other are the Channan.

Also some folks that think that the Channan kata itself had a Channan 1 and Channan 2 etc designation.
That it was in itself a group of kata much like the Pinan.

No-one really know--buts its fun to research and speculate none the less.

Thats my own deeply devauled 2 cents on it.

Don't know if that helps or not.

Please share what you find out---seriously.


Edited by cxt (11/30/05 11:02 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209625 - 12/01/05 02:30 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: WuXing]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
Quote:

that is an excerpt from an article by Choki Motobu from 1934 that I found online.




Could you please post the url to this article?

furthermore, thank you for your nice reply to this thread. Pity that this doesn't get us further, only some nice info Not to blame you! This is just a difficult subject, since the pinan and channan come from a period in wich karate was practised in secrecy and by word of mouth.
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

Top
#209626 - 12/01/05 02:51 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
Wado-AJ Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 112
Loc: gorinchem, Holland
It is said by most people that the Heians/Pinans are broken down from Kanku-Dai/Kushanku. Everybody seems to be 100% percent sure.

But when I read a book of Hironori Ohtsuka (wado-ryu founder) I find this: "Pinan kata and Kushanku share so much simmilarities that Pinan may have been derived from this kata". (by heart btw, so sentence maybe bit different from the book, it's downstrairs.. to lazy to get it )

Mr. Ohtsuka also says about pinan: "in okinawa there is something similar called Chan-an, but I don't know for sure".

Since this was a true master of budo I start wondering, why is a man like him saying that he is not for sure, and plenty of people on internet and starring in MA instructional videos say that they do know for sure

I think true answers on this topic will be hard to find.

-->Some 2nd hand info indicates that Itsou only fully created 1 or 2 of the Pinan and that the other are the Channan.

Who is this 2nd hand info? This would be very interesting to know if it could be rightious info or not. Since this is a total different approach to the pinan-channan story.

-->Since both kata would have served the same purpose of introducing techniques used in Kusanku, they would have kinda served the same purpose.

yes, and they 'stories' about Mr. Motobu and Mr. Itosu lead us to a closer answer on this one. After reading all this and my own knowlegde. I think we must look for the answer in the event written in that book spoken about. Indeed the cut up of Kushanku is very likely. But this event happening twice and have nearly the same result if far from possible. I must get my hands on the channan book and videos. Although I doubt that this will be the "truth" it leads us at least a bit closer.
_________________________
Karateschool Wadokan Gorinchem www.art-of-budo.com

Top
#209627 - 12/01/05 12:53 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Wado-AJ]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

Wado

I belive it was one of the Motobu's.

I don't have the book right in front of me of course.

The hard truth is that no-one "knows for sure."

And it does not really matter.

Viewing the Pinan as a "cut up" version of Kusanku is a perfectly legit methods of approcahing it.

I personally think that the Channan preceed the Pinan.

But given that the Channan looked so much like the Pinan that Motobu could easily recognize them.
Its just as possible that the Channna kata THEMSELVES were "cut up" versions of Kusanku.

And that would nto have been lost when they became the Pinan.

Best places to start a search would be with John Sells book Unante, I think the website is called the Martial Source.

I would also look into some of Elmer Schmeisser work such as his book and video on Channan kata.

His stuff may be for sale on the Fighting Arts Website or if not you can find it at:

www.karatethejapaneseway.com

You may already know this of course.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209628 - 12/01/05 01:35 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Wado-AJ]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Actually, this exceprt is in an article on fightingarts
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=212

This is the full article by Motobu
http://seinenkai.com/articles/swift/swift-motobu1.html

Here's another article on the site specifically about channan kata and Anko Itosu
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=127


Edited by WuXing (12/01/05 01:50 PM)

Top
#209629 - 12/01/05 08:24 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: WuXing]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Why all the interest in the Channan Kata? Most already do some Kata related to Channan even though they do not know it. Channan, which is Chinese for valley, is Matsumura Sokons version of a Shaolin form that originated in the Northern Shaolin Temple. This is how the Kata recieved its name. I would have thought that the group would have been more interested in Matsumura's Baihe kata to be honest.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#209630 - 12/02/05 12:24 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
The question was about where the pinan kata come from. They were created by Itosu, so that's where we would look first for answers. What did he know? Who taught him? If Matsumura knew a kata called channan and taught it to Itosu, that would be one explanation. None of the research articles seem to have come across that explanation, though. There's still a lot of confusion.
Paul Hart, what style do you practice that has preserved the channan kata of Matsumura? If you know the kata, does it appear to be very similar to any/all of the pinan katas? Is the channan you speak of known by another name in a different style?

Matsumura's Bai He kata would be very interesting to see. I only know of Hakutsuru. However, that might be a topic for another thread. If you have specific reference material about who/where Matsumura learned Bai He Quan from, and what the Chinese names of the Quan he knew/passsed down, that would be interesting to read.

Top
#209631 - 12/02/05 07:35 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: WuXing]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
I am writing a book about alot of this information. I will tell you that it is difficult as to much information will spawn a bunch of reading Judan's and I would like to shed some light so I don't want to hold a lot back. No, the Channan has some things that may cross over to the Pinan but nothing exactly, of course a punch is a punch. So you would be interested in Baihe, what about huquan, another "lost" Okinawan kata with Chinese origins. There is so much to Okinawa Te that has not been released.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#209632 - 12/02/05 10:57 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
So are you saying that these "lost" okinawan kata contain principles and strategies of fighting not contained in most widely known ones? Or is it that they are simply different kata that teach what others already do? I will definitely check out your book when it comes out. From which teachers did you learn this unreleased information?

Top
#209633 - 12/03/05 12:16 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: medulanet]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Yes! The Okinawan Kata of the original Tang Hand has ways that modern Karate has no trace of. The information that has been removed may surprise you. I am always amazed at what people teach as Karate today. They teach mostly a curriculum that anyone could fully learn in 2 to 3 years. The Old Ways would take 7 to 8 years to absorb all the information. What is left of Karate is a skeleton of what it once was. My teacher has always been and will always be Hanashiro shinyei, a direct student of Chosho (not Chosin) Chibana. I am sure there are a lot of people that do not want to hear this but it is as I see it.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#209634 - 12/03/05 06:25 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

The information that has been removed may surprise you. I am always amazed at what people teach as Karate today.




It does not surprise me at all, because if you look at some of the 'originating' chinese systems found in Fukien province (like 5 Ancestors) the so-called karate systems put out as karate seems so 'elementary'

The old Okinawan founding fathers must either left a lot out to erase its 'chineseness' or were simply not taught the complete curricullum, having spent not really an adeguate length of time in China or with visiting chinese teachers. So we hear this Okinawan master learned one kata from this chinese so-and-so and another one from another chinese so-and-so. And if you are that Okinawan founding master, not having learned the whole system, but having now to teach other Okinawans, what do you do?

It is interest to hear that the 'dying' native tongue of Okinawa is Hogen. The sound of this word 'hogen' is the exact sound of what the Fukinese called their native dialect as pronounced in Fukienese. This may explain how the old Okinawan masters who travelled to Fukien province communicated with their Fukienese teachers.

The old chinese were very insular people and anyone not speaking their language will not be seen in a favourable light.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#209635 - 12/03/05 08:08 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
tiger fist? It was said that one of the chinese men who was famous for teaching in Okinawa was a tiger stylist, the other was a white crane styist. I don't feel like looking up their names right now. The tiger stylist influenced some of the naha te/goju ryu kata. I've also read five ancestor fist and lohan quan, monk fist, were influences. I have been learning several different kung fu styles over the past few years, a majority of the forms I have been learning are crane style and tiger style. Supposedly the lineage of my school is from south china, originating in the south shaolin temple. I would be interested to actually see the kung fu forms that karate kata are said to be derived from, or that inspired them. I think most of them have probably been lost to the sands of time. If you actually know some, I would love to see them in a book. I think the need to preserve and document these things outweighs the risk that some kid will try to learn martial arts from it. It is of immeasurable value to actual practicioners of both kung fu and karate

Top
#209636 - 12/03/05 10:34 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: WuXing]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
While I may agree with you about the importance of keeping the style alive, I and the rest of my small group have decided long ago that we only teach certain things by direct transmission. I am writing the book but will work around the agreed upon guidelines. I am not so much worried about kids, more about adults trying to con the public with half truths, ect. A sample of this is at this Link to half truths I nor any of my crew would want to be a party to this.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#209637 - 12/03/05 12:00 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Rank testing by video says it all.

Top
#209638 - 12/05/05 02:48 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
I would always wonder about this guy each time he appeared in BB Mag. He never used to wear the Shorinji Kempo-like Hoi & he never had those atas on his forearms.

Image is everything.

Top
#209639 - 06/05/06 10:41 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Hello Channan Posters:

My name is Avery Wax, I was born in 1924 I am eighty two years old. I am a student of the late Al Martin Sr.Sensei 1922-1984. Al Maritn Sr. Sensei was one of the first people to teach Shorin Ryu here in the U.S.started our club back in 1951. He learned from James McCollum and Seinsuke Sakugawa and Bull (Usi) Sakugawa on Hawaii. Mr Hart you seem to know alot of facts but there is one or two you are a bit confused on in the Lineage you claim. "My teacher has always been and will always be Hanashiro shinyei, a direct student of Chosho (not Chosin) Chibana". The actual person you are referring to was actually named Chosho Sakugawa not Chibana this is a common mistake made first by the propagator of the wonder okinawa website then the perfectual Gov. site. Chosin and Chosho Sakugawa were brothers there was never a Chosho Chibana however Chosin Chibana was named after Chosin Sakugawa. My bet is your Karate and Al Martin Jr.'s Karate look just alike. and this will explain why! Al Martin Jr.'s Lineage and my own is Chosin Sakugawa (1837-1921) to Bull "Usi" Sakugawa (1881-1975) to James McCollum (1915-1979) and Al Martin Sr.(1922-1984) to Avery Wax and Alton Martin Jr.

Mr. Hart your Lineage is probably Chosho "Chibana" Sakugawa who was Chosin Sakugawa's younger brother (1839-1919) to your supposed teacher Hanashiro Shinyei.

Now The Channan Kata Myth debunked by Avery "Black Ace" Wax.

Yes the Channan's did and still do exist with some school's
No they do not look like the Pinnan/Heians. They are much simpler. The reason most search for them I do not Know Why?
They are not Magical just were not made Popular. Why are they not popular that is easy Ankoh Itosu did not propagate or populate leathel Karate but rather Karate for Children as did his student Gichein Funakoshi hence Pinnan/Heian. This School Children's or School yard Karate is what most of the world calls Karate and even Tae Kwon Do.

Ankoh Itosu Invented the Pinnans His student Giechin Funakoshi changed their name to Heian for his Shotokan Choi Hung Hi the founder or Tae kwon Do called them Pyng Ahn he learned them from Funakoshi who learned them from Itosu they are all Ankoh Itosu's creation no Matter what they are called. Enough Said yet! do you momma's boys get it now!
The jokes on all of you. thats why the Okinawan's do'nt go berzerk like you mag pies. They Know the Channan's but ain't tellin ya! Gives them the Edge over the rest of the world except for the Chineses and a few Lucky Americans.

Itosu Had no reason to continue teaching the Channan Kata's because they were very Chinese utilized a few Killing Oyo and were not what he could sell to the okinawan public Schools, and Funakoshi could not market them to Japan.

Avery Wax
Semper Fi!

Top
#209640 - 06/05/06 11:33 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Enough Said yet! do you momma's boys get it now!
The jokes on all of you. thats why the Okinawan's do'nt go berzerk like you mag pies.




A bit abrasive for a first post. Perhaps "senseibikiniwax" would be a more apt moniker.


Edited by oldman (06/05/06 12:24 PM)

Top
#209641 - 06/05/06 11:38 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Hi Avery,

any relation?
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...e=1&fpart=3

Here's the common knowledge:

The last to know the kata in the form it came from China with principles intact was Itosu's sensei, Matsumura.

take Pinan Shodan, Nidan and Yondan, mix it with kusanku and the composite is what there is left of the Channan kata.

what people have been claiming for years, is in knowing the true Channan. anyone claiming such a thing is either suspect or mistaken. It was lost and composites were subsequently made and sold as 'the lost kata'.

I suspect if there was a 'joke' in this, it's the people who claim so loudly to know the true Chinese Channan.

pardon the directness - not meant as disrespect, just efficient communication.

-Ed

Top
#209642 - 06/05/06 12:34 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
pardon the joke - not meant as disrespect, just efficient humor at your expense.

It seems only fair, by your measurement my training is a joke. What would you expect from me, perfection of character?

Top
#209643 - 06/05/06 01:03 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Actually Chosho Chibana, or Sakugawa, wasn't really well known. He wasn't called by those names, but was called Tanme or "Old Man" and was often called Chibana, Sakugawa and Matsumura Tanme. For all I know it may have been Nabe Matsumura. I really am not 100% positive of anything as I was taught the history when I was 14 years old. We know this for certain, he had some ties with the Chibana family as well as the Sakugawa family. What you speak of cannot be proven either way, because he is not here and few records still exist. I know of only a few pictures and that is all. These are old pictures of the Tin type, and are not of very good quality. Yes, I am familiar with Al Martins Karate and yes we have some very close ties between our systems. Al and I do a lot of the same techniques and Kata. This proves that we have some kind of lineage that crosses in the past. That is not really knowledge that I would like to share however, as I feel the system I was taught was a Okurimono, or gift, and should be shared sparingly.

Sorry I replied to you Ed, I didn't mean to. Mr. Wax studied with Al's father. He is an old marine. I am not sure if this is him, or if maybe one of his students is posting this. None the less, he should undertsand the reasons to share, and also the reasons to keep quiet. I have trouble believeing this is a student of Al Martin Sr. as they do not speak of Karate very often and never around a group of people, they were trained so much better than this.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#209644 - 06/05/06 01:14 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Avery

Oh dear lord.

Not ANOTHER "We are the only ones that got the "true" lethal teaching and all the rest of ya got is the watered down stuff for kids" people

Incredable, Ab-so-freaking-incredible.

Some serious problems with that line of, ahm...."reasoning."

1-The story has no support----IF as you claim, then only a very few people know, then how can determine if YOUR telling us the truth?

Since "nobody" but the "chosen few" can verify your claims, its enitrely possible that your making it up.

NOT SAYING YOU ARE--just asking you how "we" can determine whom is telling it stright and whom is putting us on?

2-The Chanan are NOT and never have been "secret" upper divsion kata.
So what putative "advantage" knowing them over say, Kusanku or Bassei is highly questionable.

What is the purpose of keeping such a kata hidden when pretty much everyone already knows and uses Bassi and Kusanku, etc?

Unless there is something really special about the Channan--which NOBODY is claiming.

3-It calls in to serious question the character of many of the most famous masters.
Bascially your position is that they DELIBRATLY lied and made stuff up about what they taught.

And did so for several generations--to serious people that have been training for decades.

Again, you have no proof that anyone did so--much less a good reason why they might have done it--see # 2 above.

4-We know that the Pinan as close enough to the Channa that they can be recoginsed.
I call your attention to statemnts of people that saw BOTH--and SAID "it looks like the Channan-no-kata that I learned, but with some differences."

(my paraphrase--but accurate)

Since various versions of "similar but different" kata exsist in almost every style--there is no reaon to conclude that Channan is any different.

Heck, just look at the all the different versions of Kusanku and Bassi that exsist.

5-The whole "I know the secret handshake and you don't" is getting pretty old.
At least you could try for something NEW.

BTW there are any number of people that could advance the SAME SET OF ARGUMENTS vs ALL of Okinawan Karate as a whole.
That the Okinawans NEVER got any of the "real" stuff to start with.

And each and every argument you can make for why YOU and YOUR teacher are "really' did get the "real" training is the EXACT same arguement as to why the "rest" of us got "real" training as well.

The whole "I know the secret handshake" thing is not only old its a really bad argument besides.

6-How old was Itosu when Funakoshi took karate to Japan?

Was he even still alive?

Bascially your asking us to accept that Itosu--after 50 years of training got up one day and thought--"hmmmmm, in another 30 years one of my students will market karate to japan so I need to make changes TODAY so that 20 years from know he will be able to sell it to the Japanese."

And that makes no sense.

7-Actually I find it questionable that a guy that spent a lifetime training and teaching would suddenly "switch gears" so to speak and change the basis for his instruction wholesale.

Not the least problem here is that Itosu had too many students to "keep the killing secrets" as SECRET.
Even if you "buy" that Itosu did so, how could he possibly have made sure that ALL HIS STUDENTS DID SO.

Answer--he could not possibly have done so.

And comparing direct Itosu students and THEIR teaching shows that they are all pretty much doing the same things.
There is little varience--certianly not enough to conclude that some of them were taught "the real thing: and some were not.

Getting tired of pointing out all the flaws in your "reasoning" here.

I'll let you deal with the ones I have pointed out so far....if you can.


Edited by cxt (06/05/06 01:24 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209645 - 06/05/06 01:56 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
There is no way to prove anything. Even if there was, why would anyone want to? It is all a matter of personal belief and opinion, some based on rumors, others based on actual events, but still, we interpret all of them and make our own minds up about the history of just about everything. This is pointless, IMHO.

It is not the style of Karate anyway, it is the person practising it.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#209646 - 06/05/06 02:13 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: ButterflyPalm]
theoldone Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 172
Quote:

It is interest to hear that the 'dying' native tongue of Okinawa is Hogen. The sound of this word 'hogen' is the exact sound of what the Fukinese called their native dialect as pronounced in Fukienese.




Just for info, if anyone is interested. The Fukienese dialect is pronounced "Hokkien" (Hawk-KeyAnn) in Fukienese.
_________________________
We Are Beautiful, Temporary Patterns

Top
#209647 - 06/05/06 02:16 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: theoldone]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Actually "Hogen" means Dialect. The native tongue of Okinawa would be Uchinaguchi, but often the term Hogen is used. At least that is my understanding.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#209648 - 06/05/06 04:19 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
oldman Tanme? is that you?!

Top
#209649 - 06/05/06 04:54 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
No, but the irony was not lost on me either.

Top
#209650 - 07/08/06 07:19 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
ED, Look at Channan like this!

How many people do you know that were on Okinawa during W.W.II? How many people do you know that went to China During W.W.II. I would say anything is possible. The Channan Kata's are still around. I am not trying to sale anything nor am I promoting a Book. There are many things that are and were kept secret in Uchinan Sui-de. If you were Okinawan and America and Japan came and desicrated your home and made it a war zone and killed your families and friends would you then for money also give them your families Sui-de (Karate) I do not believe you would. Think about this Japan first took Okinawa for themselves then made it their Battlefield to keep America off the Mainland. America took Okinawa by force severe brutal direct force I know I was there! Were any of you? If you read the words of Choki Motobu, Hohan Soken and Chojun Miyagi in their Interviews slowly and carefully and think!; you may find a surprising answer. Sometimes the truth can be overlooked do you pratise Karate for the Cultivation of yourself or something else! Heck I have heard that years ago they made a Cigarete that would not kill people but if it was produced there would be a billion people out of work and broke and many tobacco companies put out of business. So the formula was bought and supposedly destroyed by the industry. Hey where's that flying car of yours parked ed.

P.S. No one has seen air, but we need it, and can see the effects of it.


Edited by senseiaverywax (07/08/06 07:27 PM)

Top
#209651 - 07/08/06 08:20 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
well, if YOU have the secret katas and wish to keep them secret....why mention it? I'd be much more interested in hearing exactly where, when and by who you learned the secret kata from. also, I'd like to hear why Okinawans trusted you above others to share this esoteric knowledge during American occupation. perhaps you've been had? isn't that a possibility? I know I could slap together a made-up kata in a week, I have no doubt Okinawan's could do it quicker and have it look better. BTW, What was your M.O.S. on Okinawa?

direct but respectfully,
-Ed

Top
#209652 - 07/08/06 10:10 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr.Ed,

Who said anything about keeping them secret! If you want to learn them I'll teach you. I like a few other lucky old Marine's learned them in the 1950's from Al Martin Sr.B:1922, D:1984 who was taught the kata's among many other things by "Bull" Ushi Sakugawa B: May 15, 1887, D: July 18, 1975 when he was in Hawaii "Bull" Ushi came from Okinawa to Hawaii September 1908. His great great grandfather was none other than Tode Sakugawa. But as always don't take my word on it check out this link. http://www.sakugawa.com/firstgen.html


Edited by senseiaverywax (07/08/06 10:12 PM)

Top
#209653 - 07/08/06 10:13 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Infantry. Mr.Ed Infantry

Top
#209654 - 07/08/06 10:56 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Sorry to be so Blunt Ed. As I have said before anyone wanting to learn the Channan's I will teach for free if you are serious about learning them. They as Mr.Hart has said are simple but unique. However, I do not do seminars nor do I charge to teach I never paid for one lesson in my life and I will not charge anyone else. I will not drive to you I am in my Eighties so you must come to me. You might also wish to see Steve Dyer he is in North Georgia or Al Martin Jr. or Mr.Paul Hart who learned them from Al Martin Jr. To answer your question aer they the real Channan's Yes they are though I must warn you learning them might change the way you view the rest of your Karate. Fear of the unknown is common Ed. The Eyes believe themselves the ears believe othe people. Instead of all this hype find out for yourself.

Top
#209655 - 07/09/06 12:02 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
blunt is ok and preferred, but please drop the "Mr" - I'm not an officer nor a talking horse.

fear of the unknown doesn't bother me as much as getting interested in something that I can't continue. besides, I don't find what I'm learning to be lacking enough to go on a wild goose chase for a kata that isn't even part of what I'm focusing on, and can't be verified of it's authenticity (since, I'm assuming you are the last surviving source, unless you can name another student of Ushi Sakugawa).

It's pretty much your word, and since I don't personally know you, your word has to be taken with the same grain of salt as anything else found online. fair enough that you say come and check it out, but what do I compare to even after I see it?

Thats the problem with anouncing that you are the carrier of an unverifiable 'secret'. It becomes credability when the kata can't be confirmed. now, surely there are surviving students on Hawaii that know the kata...plus you yourself have taught it. If the two match, then you got yourself credability.

would you happen to know when Ushi Sakugawa moved to Hawaii? also, how long did your instructor spend training with him? also, just to be clear, are you claiming to know the 'original' Channan kata brought from China?

forgive the questions, but like I said...I don't know you.

-E

Top
#209656 - 07/09/06 01:09 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Ed,
I have no problems answering questions! With Linage from the Sakugawa family who was one of the teachers of Sokon Bushi Matsumura I believe them to be the real Chinese Channan. I already gave you in my last post most of the Info you ask but o.k. here goes again Ushi Sakugawa who's nickname was "Bull" Ushi also means "Bull" moved from Okinawa to Hawaii September 1908. I am not the last source if you read my post you will see I not only named other people who know the Kata's Steve Dyer Noth Georgia Al Martin Jr. South Florida Paul Hart North Florida learned from al Martin Jr. but also gave you the Sakugawa Family website with Sakugawa's that know the Kata's. The Channan Kata's are not really secret just not used much in Commercial Kata. Let me Quote Hohan Soken:

"I found that there were two kinds of students - one was a dedicated and motivated student who wants to learn the Okinawan martial arts. The other is an individual who only wants to say he is learning karate. There are more of the latter. It is the latter that you see everywhere. They say that they "know" karate or that they "use to" practice karate - these are worthless individuals. There are many secrets in karate that people will never know and will never understand. These ideas are really not secret if you train in Okinawa under a good teacher. You will see the teacher use these so called secret techniques over and over again until they will become common knowledge to you. Others will look at it and marvel that it is an advanced or secret technique to them. That is because they do not have good teachers or their teachers have not researched their respective styles.

Sensei, any recommendations for us -- Americans?
Sensei: Yes, but you won't like it! Americans want to learn too much, too fast. You want more this and more that. You have a life time to learn. Learn slowly. Learn correctly. Look. Listen. Practice, practice, practice. Don't be a rash American, but a smart American. Never be in a hurry to learn, OK? Learning in a hurry can cause pain. Do you know about pain? Let me show you! This is from Estrada's Interview with Soken.

Top
#209657 - 07/09/06 02:27 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
In what way are the Channan kata different from the various forms of karate that are taught openly these days?

Top
#209658 - 07/09/06 06:40 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Channan Redoux

I believe I understand Ed’s questions because Channan has become somewhat of a growth industry in the arts.

My friend Joe Swift has written about it here on FA.com, and his research might have been the one of the opening discussions on Channan kata. Living in Tokyo and training in Japan and Okinawa his article is the product of his research on site.
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=127 you will note he only discusses the record he has found and that he does not conclude Channan was any particular thing from his research. Of course that has not stopped anyone from using Joe’s article to make their own claims.

On the grown industry side there is Dr. Elmer Schmeisser who has written ‘Channan the Heart of the Heians” with his own Channan kata (and yes there is a video tape)
http://karatethejapaneseway.com/usagi_press/channan/index.shtml

Then there is Mr. Scott Mertz of Maatsui Ryu Tote (formerly Saishi Ryu)
http://www.katamasters.com/index.php has a version. And from his site he does every obscure kata in existence, if that’s what you crave. He was giving them away but it appears that was a tease to now sell them. Karate always has been a growth industry.

This does not preclude that the Channan discussed by Mr Wax and Mr Heart, sensei both, being the original Channan kata, but as it appears to be a close personal tradition, there is no independent means of verifying it outside of their honor. Naming others in their tradition could prove that they are consistently retaining their way, but doesn't prove the basic assumption either.

That does not make their assertion incorrect, it’s just how do you discuss what you can’t prove? There’s a long tradition on that including Wittgensteins study into the root of language. Unfortunately it does seem to become a non discussion.

And it is why I understand you questioning why it is even being discussed, because there is no objective way to assess any of their statements (nor of Mr. Scheissmer or Mr. Mertz). Certainly you can look at their technique execution and make your own judgement of what they’re showing, but to verify their claims a true is IMO impossible.

I can understand Mr. Wax’s assertion he only teaches it on his terms. I do the same thing myself. Outside of taking him up on his offer, there is no place else to proceed, IMO.

If there is a current Okinawan tradition using Channan on Okinawa, it remains closed. There was considerable export of Okinawa’s traditions in the early 1900’s to South America, Hawaii and other places. It is certainly not impossible those locations retained an older tradition that time may have passed on Okinawa. I have heard whispers that Soken actually studied some of his traditions in South America among the Okinawan community there. But whispers don’t constitute truth.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#209659 - 07/09/06 10:04 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: medulanet]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Quote:

In what way are the Channan kata different from the various forms of karate that are taught openly these days?




Mr. Medulanet
The difference is they are more simple, Channan are basic Beginner Kata their movements repeat themselves many times the Embussen is very simple think about Naihanchi simple but effective. Most Kata practiced today have a varience of different techniques in them some Kata are so long and have so many different moves that they are hard to learn and remember. In the old days Karate ka on Okinawa worked kata by wrote to Master Technique and Movement and skill to win a fight you needed great skill lots of practice and not a whole lot of techniques.Most of the Masters of Old Uchinan Sui-de only new 4 to the most 10 Kata's now days I hear systems with over 18 to 50 Kata Sokon Matsumura himself praticed only 10 I will list them these are the Kata of True Matsumura Sui-De Shorin Ryu from Okinawa: Junjichi, Channan Tii Chi, Channan Tuu Chi, Naihanchi, Chinsu, Chinte, Chinto, Seisan, Bassai, Kushanku, with Advanced or Black Belt kata's being:
Useshi(Gojushiho)and Hakutsuru. Keep in mind to be a Black belt or Master most Okinawans only new maybe 4 of these kata at the most. They way back then was to be the best to devote yourself to your practice completely to be commited unbreakable you to turn you whole body into a weapon even your mind.. This also consisted of 100 strikes per day on the Pine Tree's or Makiwara.

Top
#209660 - 07/09/06 10:11 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Wax Sensei,

I have been told you speak, Uchinaguchi(Hogen) will you please teach me to count to Ten in Uchinaguchi? By the way you seem very humble and wise. Thank you for your info!
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

Top
#209661 - 07/09/06 10:21 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr. Sommers you are very Welcome! (Mensooree)

1.tii chi
2.tuu chi
3.mii chi
4.yuu chi
5.ichi chi
6.muu chi
7.nana chi
8.yaa chi
9.kuku nuchi
10.tuu

Top
#209662 - 07/09/06 10:29 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Wax, Sensei

Is Paul Hart Sensei moving to Kent Washington to study with you? I just noticed on some older posts you live there and he is supposedly moving there.
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

Top
#209663 - 07/09/06 10:31 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Thank you for re-answering questions. so if Channan kata has basic/core principals, I assume you do not teach pinan kata? if I may ask, what is the kata curriculum which you teach?

also, what would you say are the main fighting principals of Channan?

when you have time...thanks again.
-E

Top
#209664 - 07/09/06 10:34 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr Sommers,

Paul Hart is welcome to come and visit with me, so are you and anyone else. Why would you be concerned? do I detect Fear or maybe envy?

Top
#209665 - 07/09/06 11:06 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Ed.

You are weclome as well! (mensooree)

No I do not Know the Pinnan Kata's! I have seen many people demonstrate them over the years. The main fighting principals of Channan would in my Opinnion be: Maximum Muscular contraction, speed with which force is applied, Conditioned reflex responce, and breath control or you could consider Defence followed by counter, Defence and counter combined, No defense direct counter. and Ma-ai, Kime, Hyoshi, Choshi. Kata's I know are Junjichi, Channan Tii Chi, Channan Tuu Chi, Naihanchi, Chinsu, Chinte, Chinto, Seisan, Bassai, Kushanku, with Advanced or Black Belt kata's being:
Useshi(Gojushiho)and Hakutsuru. I also learned Baihe and Huquan and Qaihequan while I was in China.

Top
#209666 - 07/10/06 10:09 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Avery

"fear or maybe envy"

Odd that is the first things that would come to your mind.

I mean if I were to make a "snap" judgement as well this is what I would be looking at and going hmmmm.... over.

Some guy, with a questionable training history, jumps into an old thread with a lot of "secret" "insider" information on a kata that pretty much died out in general practice in late 1800s early 1900's.

Guy comes on like a rocket in his first posts.

Questions the motives of those who question him.

Then subtly changes the "tone" and content of posts as specifc questions and obsevations get asked.

Hmmmm.........

What kata DOES NOT focus on or more of the following:

-"Muscular contraction"
-"Breath control"
-"Conditioned reflex"
-"defence followed by counter"
-Defense and counter combined"

And so forth?

Seems to me that those are basic concepts/principle of pretty much ALL kata--NOT just the channan/pinan/hein series.


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 10:14 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209667 - 07/10/06 11:08 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
cxt,

Fair observations.

It always is difficult to accept that which cannot be shared openly.

Of course that's not unreasonable, for there are plenty trolling to rip off anything shared and claim it their own. But wisely anything shared (in any media) is never the same as being correctly trained in an art. But it is consistent with older traditions not to make some things public.

But then when they're discussed, there is nothing but the honnor of the person posting to accept as truth, and all of us have discoveed how problematical that can be at times.

But then this is just a discussion forum, not a arbiter of truth.

Truth we ascertain for ourselves over time.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#209668 - 07/10/06 11:39 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Victor

You know many folks are of the opinion that I am some kind of "hard case" about things--and thats the "kind" word for it

And to be fair--maybe I am.

My only explination--not "excuse"--explaination--is that I can only judge people by the content of what they post and how they go about their interactions on-line.

If I owe people an "I'm sorry" and a retraction of my statements then I am more than happy to say so and provide one.

The net lends itself to deception, the nature of martial arts training lends itself to claims of "secrets" known to only a few, and the nature of the arts lends itself well to fakes, frauds and huckesters of all kinds.

Been around the block a time or 5 and if I seem harsh---the blame lies in harsh experience---not harsh "intent."


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 12:24 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209669 - 07/10/06 11:52 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
excellent points. I share the scepticism but didn't feel like dealing with the expected retalitory comment of how much we suck since we don't posess 'the secrets'.

If it's secret, it's no good to me. I'll concetrate whats available where I train and discover what I discover.

true secrets can't be given or intellectually transferred ...they are physically realized. a good instructor helps students realize them.

In that way, everyone has their own 'secrets' to give and receive. movements to a kata are hollow without meaning...even if the kata movement are 'ancient' / 'lost' / 'recovered' / 'secret'. It's how the kata is used as a teaching tool that makes the difference.

so far, I haven't heard anything that this version of a kata someone is calling 'Channan' has anything in it which can't be found in other classical kata. The whole thread of discussion on it hints of a kind of 'nayh nayh - *I* have the secret kata.' attitude. lol I seriously doubt someone in their 80's who really does have great stuff to offer would bother in a open public forum just to relay that message. I have to wonder again about a question of propaganda. maybe YOU aren't selling anything, but your students....

Top
#209670 - 07/10/06 12:19 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
h


Edited by ANDY44 (07/10/06 12:50 PM)

Top
#209671 - 07/10/06 12:25 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Ed,

The way you guys feel is a shame! However that is the way of Karate today! I teach very few people, Karate is my Hobbie not my job! I am Retired from the U.S. Govt.) I did not make offer to sale any kata to any one! I only stated I would teach the Kata to those who had a Genuine intrest in learning it! Seems you fellows had rather talk about and Gossip more than learn! Hey that is O.K. I already explained to you Ed what Hohan Soken said there is no such thing as (Secret Techniques) not if you have a good Instructor. There are many who know the Real Channan Kata's just because you guys do not does not make them Secret. However your Naiveness makes it easy for folks such as Elmer Schmisser to sell many copies of their propaganda and make Huge Profit's

Top
#209672 - 07/10/06 12:26 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Naihanchi

Hi Senseiaverywax

you know Naihanchi?

Is this the original?

Before it got seperated?or made shorter?
Does it compare to what is used now as Naihanchi 1,2,3??

http://www.shotokankata.com/The%20Tekki%20Katas.htm

Do the katas you know compare with the katas taught today?

Thanks

Top
#209673 - 07/10/06 12:32 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: ANDY44]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr.Andy 44,

I will teach you the Channan kata's; if you would like to learn them. What way do you currently follow?

Thanks, Avery Wax

Top
#209674 - 07/10/06 12:34 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
RAINY22@FASTMAIL.FM

Hi this is my email address

Heian Shodan
Heian Nidan
Heian Sandan
Heian Yondan
Heian Godan
Tekki Shodan
Tekki Nidan
Tekki Sandan
Bassai Dai
Bassai Sho
Kanku Dai
Kanku Sho
Jion
Jitte
Enpi
Gankaku

I trained in shotokan,
I do have a working knowledge of goju ryu katas
Although not much bunkia.


Edited by ANDY44 (07/10/06 12:46 PM)

Top
#209675 - 07/10/06 12:53 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: ANDY44]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr.Andy 44,

Yes I know Naihanchi. It is most likely the Original! It is Not the same as the Naihanchi of today. I have seen many do the current Naihanchi's they have lost most of the flow of the Kata and it has been changed from Chinese to more Japanese and added to so much that it only barely resembel's its Original self. Also there are so many versions of it done so many different ways! Most katas have been modified and added to and taken away from. Old Kata's like the ones I know are more simple and teach movement at a different pace with more time spent to perfect the movement than to do a Dance. Think about old music and New music though they are different they both have merrit to the people who like them. Young folks like New Rock & Roll Middle age folks like Old Rock & Roll Old folks like really old Rock & Roll like the Mama's and the Pappa's. Does'nt mean however that a young person can't like them too! Did'nt mean to use rock & Roll in my annalogy to make anyone mad Could be Country, Rythm & Blues, Blue grass, Etc.

Top
#209676 - 07/10/06 12:57 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Avery

like I asked before.

If so much has been "changed" then how, pray-tell, can anyone trust that what "you" do has not been "changed" as well????

I guess you have film from the 1950's of your teacher doing this kata?

And some means of "cross-checking" that film vs other known versions??


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 01:00 PM)

Top
#209677 - 07/10/06 01:08 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Mr Wax (no insult intended but I only use sensei with my own instructors),

Ignoring the changes in Okinawan karate in say the last 50 years, it is very evident that proir to that the real tradition on Okinawa is kata continually changed.

Tou'on Ryu coming from the same source as Goju Ryu is very different.

Almost all of the kata have undergone innumerable changes as time passed in the 1900's and it is only an extension of that to the past that the same occured prior to 1900.

The arts were un-documented by Okinawan tradition. There was no 'source' to prove what was right. If the instructor used different variations of the kata for different reasons, that gave students license to consider doing so in their own instructorship. If the instructor perceived a different attack the kata might have chagned to face that attack.

This has been fairly documented over the years, such as the 15 different versions of Passai, and of course that is not a complete docuemntation of what changed.

There is no reason to believe the older versions of any of those kata are more efficient or better than the newer versions. With skill and practice any technique can defeat any attack, and the goal has always been to attain skill no matter which generation.

Yet everyone assumes their version is better, that is also the history of the arts. Such assumptions make little difference, such as which are better Southrern Chinese costal arts or Northern Chinese Arts, or Burmese arts are better than Indonesian ones.

The reality is almost all of the arts contain aspects of each other, they just choose different starting points or emphasize and de emphasize the others.

No doubt some practices on Okinawa are older than others. It becomes problematical to know if they are more authentic becasue of that, or have greater value.

I appreciate the faith you evidence in your practice. But open discussion will always lead others on the quest to question, and ask.

Of course I've taught for free continiously for 29 years now and have practiced for 34.

One tries,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#209678 - 07/10/06 01:35 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Quote:

Avery

like I asked before.

If so much has been "changed" then how, pray-tell, can anyone trust that what "you" do has not been "changed" as well????


Faith and trust is the way Mr. CXT Every time you sit in a chair you have faith and trust that it will not break with you! But that trust has developed over time with you sitting in chairs and them not breaking with you has it not?

That is why I teach the kata's directly and do not put them on video or write them down its not that I am trying to keep them secret I am trying to restore trust.



I guess you have film from the 1950's of your teacher doing this kata?


No there are no Video to my Knowledge. I trust that my Sensei Al Martin Sr. taught me correctly. In my Ryu there were others beside's me and there are others now even young ones, some of whom are here watching every thing I say to you folks now. Some even challenge me on what I say. Is'nt that Correct Mr.Paul Hart and Mr.Sommers and Mr. Hidden Fist and mabe even old Multiversed too!

And some means of "cross-checking" that film vs other knowen versions??




There are no kata on tape or films!

There is an agreement between Sensei and Deshi not to Change; take away from or add to the Kata! I can say that this system of Matsumura Shorin Ryu is still being taught today as it was in the 1950's. I have Talked to my Sensei's youngest son Al Martin Jr. many times since my first initial post here Thanks to Sensei Paul Hart who is one of his student's I also Knew Paul Hart's Instructor Hanashiro Shinyei who now as Paul Hart has stated has Passed On. My Respects, On your loss agian Hart, Sensei I am going to Florida to spend two weeks with Al Martin Jr. and his Kind Family next month in August. From what I have heard Al Martin Jr. has abouth 5,979 student's between Lee, Collier, Charlotte, Sarasota, Counties.

When I come back seems I will probbably meet Paul Hart, Sensei in person as Sommers Sensei
informed me; that he was moving here to Kent Washington.

Top
#209679 - 07/10/06 02:05 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Avery

Ok, then follow me here.

According to your own posts things change.

Except what YOU DO.

Its possible for OTHER peoples art to suffer inncorrect things being passed down BUT NOT YOUR OWN.

Nobody else should have "faith and trust" that what they do is largely correct EXCEPT YOU.

That "I" should NOT "trust" that MY teacher taught me "correctly" but we should trust that YOUR teacher did.
And that HIS teacher taught HIM correctly.

See what I getting at?

From where I sit you seem to be exempting yourself from the same arguements and posits you make concerning everyone else and their arts and teachers.

If the questions and observations are valid--then they pretty much cut BOTH ways--cutting yourself and your teachers as well.

BTW--I am largely a goju-ka, I know the Pinan series but from a training persepctive, I could not care less as to the Channan/Pinan etc---we don't use them in our training.


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 02:21 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209680 - 07/10/06 02:12 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yup, it's a shame that you can't prove your Channan wasn't created after the Pinans.

here's a few thoughts: If Channan was worth keeping, even versions of it would have been wide spread. If it was to be contained as in family arts, why go to Hawaii and share it? [edit]oops, I see Victor beat me to the question

another thought, the website you give of U. Sakugawa's lineage does not mention who the father or grandfather of Ushi is. only this is mentioned:
Quote:

"We think that the Sakugawa family served the king as counsel or samurai but that still has not been confirmed."




Also, am to understand that Ushi learned Karate on Okinawa, moved to Hawaii when he was 21, practiced on his own for 30+ years, then taught Al Martin?

sorry, but this is starting to sound like a fabricated lineage.

Top
#209681 - 07/10/06 02:35 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Quote:

Avery

Ok, then follow me here.

According to your own posts things change.

Except what YOU DO.

Its possible for OTHER peoples art to suffer inncorrect things being passed down BUT NOT YOUR OWN.

Nobody else should have "faith and trust" that what they do is largely correct EXCEPT YOU.

That "I" should NOT "trust" that MY teacher taught me "correctly" but we should trust that YOUR teacher did.
And that HIS teacher taught HIM correctly.

See what I getting at?


CXT,

I think what Wax, Sensei means is that this way is Unchanged there are no Updates at all. I as a practioner of said system understand what he is saying, you may not! You also seem a mite bit closed minded. Goju has had many updates it is not the exact style now that Miyagi Sensei taugh! Are the Kata's the same some are some are not.

BTW--I am largely a goju-ka, I know the Pinan series but from a training persepctive, I could not care less as to the Channan/Pinan etc--we don't use them in our training.


I also used to study Goju untill I met Al Martin Sr.in 1979 And now I study with his son Al Martin Jr.

Look guys, You have never seen Karate like this before it is the true old style of Sui-de. We have people from Shotokan, Goju, Isshin, Shito, Uechi, Motobu, and other systems training with us. Why is it not popular? This is my theory It is mainly taught for free! People do not usually spend time on something and take away from their families unless there is a way to make money out of it.The people that do this system do it because they love it they truely love karate. I Love this System I had a Yondan in Goju but there was something always being changed and people argueing back and forth or getting angry and going off to start their own system heck I even tried Judo. But this system suits me. I do not think Wax Sensei is trying to recruit you guys. But he does seem to want you to give up the whole the Channan's are a Secret thing! I think the second worst thing to happen to Karate is Video Tapes. You can not learn Kata from a video Tape you can mimic what you see but you can not bond with the kata.
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

Top
#209682 - 07/10/06 02:45 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sommers

Your missing the point--either on purpose or because your not reading thorughly.

I asked about films ONLY because claims have been advanced concerning "trust" issues and people NEVER making any sort of changes or adapations to the kata.

And since Avery seems so quick to suggest and argue that OTHER people should not "trust" thier own teachers.
Asking how he KNOWS for a fact that such changes have not been made in his own system--in the absence of positive proof like films--is very germaine.

So when you get right down to it---he is taking it on trust, just like pretty much everyone else.

But then again--its not us--its HIM that running around questioning that trust.

I just see no reason not to put his OWN reasoning/questions to HIM as well.

BTW--how could you possibly know what I or any of us have "seen?"
Since you don't know any of us--or me. Its kinda of a reach to say what I or we have "seen."

I mean how could you possibly know what I have "seen?"

Plus, hate to be the one to point it out--but if what you do looks radically differentfrom whats being taught in Okinawa--and by a couple of generations of karate-ka since WW2--then Occams Razor would suggest a rather harsh conculsion.

ie That is your stuff thats "wrong."

Not saying it is of course--just pointing out the problems with your reasoning.


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 02:52 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209683 - 07/10/06 03:01 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
O.K. ED,

(Qoute]yup, it's a shame that you can't prove your Channan wasn't created after the Pinans. What?

here's a few thoughts: If Channan was worth keeping, even versions of it would have been wide spread. If it was to be contained as in family arts, why go to Hawaii and share it? [edit]oops, I see Victor beat me to the question

another thought, the website you give of U. Sakugawa's lineage does not mention who the father or grandfather of Ushi is.

Ed Read it again it says his Grand Father is Chosin Sakugawa!
only this is mentioned:
Quote:

"We think that the Sakugawa family served the king as counsel or samurai but that still has not been confirmed."




Also, am to understand that Ushi learned Karate on Okinawa, moved to Hawaii when he was 21, practiced on his own for 30+ years, then taught Al Martin?

Ed, Am I to Understand that Sokon Matsumura was born in 1797 Started training in 1810 at age 14 studing with Sakugawa and Kusnaku and became a Master after four years of studing Then in 1813 at age 17 became the Chief body guard for the Okinawan King and then founded Shorin Ryu in 1820 at age 23 then made trips to study in China.

sorry, but this is starting to sound like a fabricated lineage.



Top
#209684 - 07/10/06 03:26 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
ED,

If it was to be contained as in family arts, why go to Hawaii and share it?

That is a good Question! Why go to Hawaii at all but many Okinawan's did! For Example: Born and raised in Hawaii, Ted Tabura, Sensei began training in his Families martial arts in a backyard dojo under his cousin's tutelage. Later moving to Southern California, Ted discovered the Okinawa- te dojo headed by another Hawaii-born instructor, Shihan Gordon Diversola.
ttabura@worldblackbelt.com

Top
#209685 - 07/10/06 03:34 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia

asked about films ONLY because claims have been advanced concerning "trust" issues and people NEVER making any sort of changes or adapations to the kata.

And since Avery seems so quick to suggest and argue that OTHER people should not "trust" thier own teachers.

CXT,

Exactly where did Wax, Sensei post anything about other people should not trust their own teachers?
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

Top
#209686 - 07/10/06 03:53 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Wax Sensei,

Do you think your Kata's are better than theirs?

Do you want to teach them the Kata's

What is your purpose in dicussing this on this forum?

It my understanding that they are trying to make a fool out of you! They do not see Karate as you do they do not want to Learn from you! Just like the young Okinawans they do not care about tradition or truth. Wax Sensei this is not Karate these people are making fun and Laughing at you. They do not know Real Karate they do not want to Learn Karate! It is their Oppions only that matter to them. Please Leave this Forum, I ask you as an Uchi Deshi,
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

Top
#209687 - 07/10/06 04:04 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Quote:

Wax Sensei,

Do you think your Kata's are better than theirs?

NO!

Do you want to teach them the Kata's

As I already said If the show a Geniune content to Learn!

What is your purpose in dicussing this on this forum?

I am Tired of the Secret Bull about the Channan's

It my understanding that they are trying to make a fool out of you! They do not see Karate as you do they do not want to Learn from you! Just like the young Okinawans they do not care about tradition or truth. Wax Sensei this is not Karate these people are making fun and Laughing at you. They do not know Real Karate they do not want to Learn Karate! It is their Oppions only that matter to them. Please Leave this Forum, I ask you as an Uchi Deshi,




SO! Sometimes one must sacrafice pride to teach.

Top
#209688 - 07/10/06 04:07 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA

Quote:

It my understanding that they are trying to make a fool out of you! They do not see Karate as you do they do not want to Learn from you! Just like the young Okinawans they do not care about tradition or truth. Wax Sensei this is not Karate these people are making fun and Laughing at you. They do not know Real Karate they do not want to Learn Karate! It is their Oppions only that matter to them. Please Leave this Forum, I ask you as an Uchi Deshi,






What?! Funny. Oh man, I am laughing my butt off now!

I was just having a good time reading through this and since I am a non-kata guy I was sort of looking at this from a more or less disinterested perspective.

But, dispite the less than congenial nature that this has turned toward, I could only read this as a question of argument structure.

Both CXT and Ed were not necessarily questioning the veracity of the instruction here, but questioning the format of the argument. You can't prove a proof with the same proof...and it all percolates down to opinion anyway. If one assumes they have the right of it, then they can poke at everyone else's direction. The others on this thread just wanted to make sure that this perception may be biased since, like religion, most everyone else thinks the other guy's wrong, and won't aim that same laser-like perception into their own instruction.

The only issue that I see, is that you have to take everything with a grain of salt, including one's own training.

And then this last part, oh my goodness! That's funny in a strange, drinking the koolaide way.

Top
#209689 - 07/10/06 04:22 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

It my understanding that they are trying to make a fool out of you! They do not see Karate as you do they do not want to Learn from you! Just like the young Okinawans they do not care about tradition or truth. Wax Sensei this is not Karate these people are making fun and Laughing at you. They do not know Real Karate they do not want to Learn Karate! It is their Oppions only that matter to them. Please Leave this Forum, I ask you as an Uchi Deshi,






What the.....! OK, let's try to take a dispassionate look at what has gone on here. Sensei Wax has made some claims about the knowledge of and veracity of certain kata. Others have questioned him on it, and asked for proof. So far, Sensei Wax has not really provided any, and flatly refused to offer either written or video demos of the kata in question. This would seem to not help his credibility on the issue.

Now you want him to leave the forum, because he was questioned on HIS OWN CLAIMS?

I hope I have missed something here, because that screams of some kind of odd cult mentality as Butterfly alluded to. "Real karate" people can not be questioned?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#209690 - 07/10/06 04:30 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: butterfly]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mrs. Butterfly,

Good Comment not sure I follow you though. It could be because I am old or because I only greduated the third Grade. of course school only went to the third grade when I went to school.

Can you be more simple please!

Top
#209691 - 07/10/06 04:40 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: MattJ]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr Matt,

Its not to late for you! I still remember the kata at least for right now! But maybe I want after I drink some coolaide and hear Voices.

My Question is since you guys think I so funny and you are all laughing is this: Did Mrs. Butterfly say she does'nt do any Kata at all or did that one slip past my Eighty nine year old grey matter as well.

Top
#209692 - 07/10/06 04:57 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Ed,

I am Being Blunt again,

If anyone wants to Learn the Channan Kata's I will still tach them to you! No one hear can Prove them or disprove prove them. So I am still saying they are the real McCoy.

And I am going to keep saying it until, I meet someone who can Convince me they are not or you guys can prove to me they are not with a tape of Sokon Bushi Matsumura Doing the Real Channan's.

Avery Channan Wax Sensei

Top
#209693 - 07/10/06 05:05 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Wax, Sensei

That was fun I had a Ball! You are not a Prune after all!
I will see U in Auggie.

Uchi Deshi Ha Ha Ha !
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

Top
#209694 - 07/10/06 05:10 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
See sommers,

30 posts now it says, I am a MEMBER. Bring my 30 bucks wimp!

Top
#209695 - 07/10/06 05:14 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
The bottom line is without specifically stating what the problems are with karate taught today no one is going to say "you know, your are right, I have no idea what I have been doing all these years" and pay upwards of $300 to fly to Washington to learn a lost kata. Avery Wax may have the means to do that, but I sure as hell don't. The statements he is making are so general he could be saying that Oyata's karate, Nagamine's karate, Hohan Soken's karate, or anyone's karate who does not have the Channan kata is junk. He may not be saying it, but thats how it comes off. Bottom line I will put my karate up against anyone's and I am sure you will do the same. And even though your karate may be more original that still doesn't mean jack unless you can put it to good use. Now if you can put it to good use is that a product of your karate, or of your own skill, or due to the teaching and training methods you use and really not because you know Channan or not. And if you don't care about pride or money and don't believe that karate can be taught through video then why not show a clip. Your not teaching anyone right, just showing a clip of it. Only by not even being willing to prove a claim you make by producing visual evidence that yes you know a kata which is radically different from the karate all of us practice then why make the claim at all. I would say not giving evidence at this point does more to tarnish the reputation of that which you do even more because of some of the claims that you make. If you know Channan good for you, if it is better than what you and all of your students have seen good for you, but have you seen what I have or many of those that post here, I think not. I'm sure you have heard the phrase "Put your money where your mouth is" or perhaps "Put up or shut up" and I think this applies here.

Top
#209696 - 07/10/06 05:24 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: medulanet]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr Medulant,

Good Idea Boy! Let's Kumite! We should all get together and put it to the test. Hey where do you live I am going to see Al Martin Jr. in August maybe I can swing by your Dojo on the way. I will show you the Channan complete with Bunkia and Okuden or Oyo and you tell me your take on it. Or heck somebody by me a video camera send it to me before august and I will record Al Martin Jr. doing the Kata and make everyone a copy!

Top
#209697 - 07/10/06 05:34 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Phoenix, Arizona. PM me if you want to set something up.

Top
#209698 - 07/10/06 05:39 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
OK.

A couple hundred bucks to see the "real" channan! In 25 years, I've paid far more for far less!

Might be put up or shut up time!

Page

PS. It's Mr. Butterfly and Dr. Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Top
#209699 - 07/10/06 06:17 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sensei Wax,

As a preface, first, “butterfly” is an FA pseudonym or nom de web, if you like. My gender is male, but that’s not a real problem or issue. If you like, call me Brad. I honestly mean no irritation here, and it is hard to “view” how others intend to post and in what voice they write since we are communicating outside of physical and vocal cues.

So the argument as set up, again the assumption here from what I am taking from your and Mr. Sommer’s postings, is that your Karate is more “real” than someone else’s by virtue of unattenuated kata training.

If this is so, then the question becomes one of definition and measurement. How does one define “real” as opposed to “less real” or “unreal?”

This then posits that you have substantiated evidence to show that your training is more authentic than someone else’s. And then again, authentic has to be analyzed with respect to “real.” Since questions of utility have to be answered on counts for both issues. Just because something is older or has less footprints on the path, does not mean more effective or more usable, but that’s only part of the consideration here: One, authenticity—provable authenticity; and two, real—provable real, karate…whatever that means.

Now you have problems with comparison shopping, because you must know what you are comparing before making these considerations and that means knowing the instructors of those with whom you are speaking. This also means that one has a barometer to measure change with…perhaps an old document or something else to substantiate claims of change or lack thereof. This then begs the question of legitimacy which seems to be at the core of this discussion.

As I am a nobody and don’t particularly like kata or have a vested interested in studying the kata that I do know, I came to this thread out of curiosity since I have been shown some kata and would like to know what you folks talk about…and was pulled into the shallows by the same current that I think others read in this thread. To wit, that your karate is more real than someone else’s by virtue of its kata having not been changed. So, since I am not a kata guy, I wanted to see the merits of the argument, not really caring where the thread went. And what I came up with is that CXT, Ed, and Victor scored a goal in pushing the obvious: Where is the proof? GOOOOOAAAAAL!!!!!

As far as my comment about the Kool-Aid. Perhaps this is inappropriate, but if you read Mr. Sommer’s post as I did, coming from my vantage point on the sidelines of this particular game, then it reads much more like some acolyte who wishes to protect his master and smacks somewhat of cultish behavior…thus my comment.

In any case, the feeling of what has been posted here sort of goes like this: Kata = karate = utility = real. If utility is exempted, then it matters little what kata one does since it has no significance in application. If application of karate is the measurement, there a lot of good players out there who practice little to no kata, and probably not the one you have listed. Then the question of an unadulterated kata practice merits little in the consideration of real, functional karate. Or I could be mistaken. But the question of proof has still not been answered.

Regards,

Brad

Top
#209700 - 07/10/06 09:40 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: medulanet]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr.Medulant,

What does pm mean? do you mean see you in the afternoon? I will need your address for Mapquest my E-mail is senseiaverywax@aol.com.

Looking forward to meeting you!

Top
#209701 - 07/10/06 10:02 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: butterfly]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr.Butterfly,

My appology for thinking you were female. I did not understand alot of the fancy words you used as I said I only Graduated the third grade it was all there was. I may not know your fancy words or the other guys physco Bable but as a Combat proven U.S. Marine that survived W.W.II being sent to Okinawa and China I do understand fighting and I will wager you some of these folks never had to fight to live or carry their blown to bits buddies across a field that looks like its burning in hell! with bombs exploding men screaming for god to take them home and the gut renching smell of bodies decaying all around you. With an enemy running and hiding in caves or behind women and children real hand to hand fighting occurs when you are out of ammo but the other guy has his. Have you ever had to fight somebody who wanted to kill you, and tried with what ever he could find then to move on to the next one you have to snap his neck or pull out his eyes with your thumbs. I have seen the other post going about blocks in real combat blocks seem to disappear all that matters is how you will devour the next movement grab the enemy and rip him apart.. Sorry got a bit carried away..

Top
#209702 - 07/10/06 10:11 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
By the way I still know the Channan Kata. Oh and alot more.
Of course it could be the fact that I am a Real warrior as in been to war, in a war, survived a war) that this style is so good! LOL LOL!!!

Top
#209703 - 07/10/06 10:26 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Sommers

Please go back and re-read the statements made by Avery.

He is clearly suggesting what I stated.

In fact, he has failed to address observations made by me on this thread in early June/06--and in 05 when the thread first popped up.

Got to tell you the general "tone" of Avery's posts keeps changeing.

I suspect that its just a guy or guys having fun while school is out.

I would hope that people have better things to do than simply be pains in the kester---but then again, I have been wrong before.


Edited by cxt (07/10/06 10:30 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209704 - 07/10/06 10:30 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: ANDY44]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi ALL.
This thread is getting way to heavy.

Sensei avery wax

I have put on the thread my email address. If you have any form of notation as regards to katas and bunkia and if you could e mail them to me then that would be great.

thanks

Top
#209705 - 07/10/06 10:52 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
saw alot of action on okinawa during the 50's did you? where and when in China did you fight hand-to-hand?

My first goju instructor is an ex-marine who was stationed on Okinawa during the 50's - he meraculously survived without learning Channan, just Goju and continued training back home under A. Mirakian after a couple tours before opening the club I later joined. ...my uncle too served in the Marines during that time in Okinawa, he described it as decimated, starving and slowly rebuilding - no fighting. My other Uncle saw alot more action in Vietnam in the following decade, he became a Boston cop and never fully recovered from the battles he saw. ended up killing himself. Still, I can't bear to think what my grandfather went thru in 1942 Singapore while serving the Royal Navy on a shore establishment. most likely he was one of the many many unaccounted for prisoners of war but were used as slave labor, but listed as a casualty on the day of surrender for reasons I'm trying to find out, but don't really want to know at the same time.

all of that martial history running thru my blood and thru my mind, but the history and stories don't make it my reality. I would never claim to have their experiences...I can only hope you wouldn't stoop so low as to take others experience and call it your own.

here's some more psycho-babble:
The fact you mention your alleged combat experience in this thread is to give yourself percieved credability with the effectiveness of what you leaned from A. Martin. Not only does that atmosphere you create stink of B.S. , but it gives off an offensive stench of those who really did see horrors of war but would never EVER mention it so casually in open forum.

Either you are a fraud, senile, or wishing to promote your name in order to promote by reference the people claiming your lineage. The fact is, the good instructors don't claim...they just do. People that claim, sell. and it IS possible to sell for no money. could you list some projects you have students do for you? anything from mowing the lawn to remodeling a house would be interesting to hear...

as always, no disrespect ...just Q&A.
-Ed

Top
#209706 - 07/10/06 10:53 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

By the way I still know the Channan Kata. Oh and alot more.
Of course it could be the fact that I am a Real warrior as in been to war, in a war, survived a war) that this style is so good! LOL LOL!!!



ummm excuse me Sir...your 3rd grade is showing

Top
#209707 - 07/10/06 11:06 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
btw, also for the record, my uncle and others in my family are exactly the same generation as you, yet the lowest grade they attained was 8th grade. maybe it was just a Northeast thing of having grades beyond 3rd in the 1930's...which town/state did you grow up in where they didn't have beyond 3rd? I can tell when people purposely "mispel" words or try to change their online 'voice'. it's weird, not sure how I can tell, it's subjective reasoning, but the vibe I get from your posts is that you are not who you say you are, or are trying to be something you are not.

Top
#209708 - 07/10/06 11:27 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Wax, Sensei an the others here!

I spoke to my Sensei Al Martin Jr. who is a little upset with you folks and he ask could you please leave his fathers name out of your conversation. Yes it is true his father taught Mr Wax but that is that. Al Martin Sr. was Brave and Couragous and served the United States in W.W.II If you have Questions for Alton Martin Jr. Email Him at almartin34109@yahoo.com or see his website at http://karateinc.tripod.com or http://associatedkarate.tripod.com.
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

Top
#209709 - 07/10/06 11:43 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Ed,

You got a h___-on for me or what?

I told you I only Greduated the third Grade!

My Service to our Country is true! He when I die Ed gets all my war Relics for opening his poop shoot to far! .

Top
#209710 - 07/11/06 12:34 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
so all of this isn't true then?
Quote:

as a Combat proven U.S. Marine that survived W.W.II being sent to Okinawa and China I do understand fighting and I will wager you some of these folks never had to fight to live or carry their blown to bits buddies across a field that looks like its burning in hell! with bombs exploding men screaming for god to take them home and the gut renching smell of bodies decaying all around you. With an enemy running and hiding in caves or behind women and children real hand to hand fighting occurs when you are out of ammo but the other guy has his. Have you ever had to fight somebody who wanted to kill you, and tried with what ever he could find then to move on to the next one you have to snap his neck or pull out his eyes with your thumbs. I have seen the other post going about blocks in real combat blocks seem to disappear all that matters is how you will devour the next movement grab the enemy and rip him apart



if so, answer my questions. You put yourself and your Sensei is a position of credability. can't call off the dogs now. no offense to Mr. Martin Sr. and Jr. this is about the credability of Avery Wax only who is claiming to have battlefield war experience as quoted above and claims to be personally teaching the Chinese version of Channan as taught to Tode Sakugawa.

By mentioning actual combat, yes you did touch a nerve with me since my family tree is riddled with no joke war experience and generations of fatherless sons. It's offensive to hear someone talk so lightly about it in order to further their agenda.

so prove your war exerience with dates and locations and duty (private message or e-mail is fine nthdegree_news@yahoo.com ).

If you can't stand the microscope, then why make claims on a public forum?

Top
#209711 - 07/11/06 12:52 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: sommers]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you tag teams always do this.

1. We question someone.
2. 3rd party tells us that we are being disrespectful.

in this case:
1. I question A. Wax's battlefield experience.
2. you tell us his sensei has a honerable war record.

thats not what I was asking...was it. everyone here and everyone's sensei is honerable, ok?

but not everyone is Waxing us with claims of 'true' this and 'authenic' that. This is now a matter of credability of A. Wax. no one else. k? The reason for the question of credability is because of his claims pertinent to the thread topic.

If thats ok with you and your friends in the Secret Seito Society Selling Something, then Mr. Wax can speak for himself.

Top
#209712 - 07/11/06 08:15 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
What did I tell you?

This is just a bunch of kids jacking around on the web while schools out.

You can almost set your watch by it.

Long enough into summer that the kids are running out of things to do---they are getting bored--so they come here.

Its not even any fun to kick these guy around--all they can do is call people names and use profanity.

Who can't curse and make "potty" jokes????

Now "I'm" getting bored.


Edited by cxt (07/11/06 08:16 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209713 - 07/11/06 09:46 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
I am still here! I still know the Channan's and you can to!

Top
#209714 - 07/11/06 09:52 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

"yawn"

My guess is not for much longer
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#209715 - 07/11/06 10:01 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Ed,

I was on Okinawa in the 1940's not the 50's I no you can read but comprehention seems to be a lttle hazy for you.

I know you guys are probably can't affrod to come and train with me. (thats O.K.) And contrary to what you think I am not rubbing it in your face that I know the Channans and you don't heck you know Itosu's Pinan's and I don't. So I got a Solution for you lets put all this B.S. effort into some Reasearch you guys seem more school smart than I do so let try to find you the answers your looking for! Unless you are a bunch of panty waisted Mama's Boys!

We Need to compile a list of everyone that saw or supposedly did Channan kata's and what they said and go from there. Here is my 2 C's: of the folks I know of!
Yui Fei
Li ning Jan
Peichin Takahara
Kusanku
Tode Sakugawa
Sokon Bushi Matsumura
Choyu Motobu
Choki Motobu
Ankoh Itosu
Ankoh Azato
Kosoku Matsumora
Chojun Miyagi

Now lets keep going...

Top
#209716 - 07/11/06 10:06 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
senseibuttwax and sumdumboy,

Both of you guys are just a couple of clowns.

I'll put my redneck backyard goju up against you losers anyday. sheesh......the smell is killin'me.
The way both of you have disrespected my forum friends here has realy peeved me off! Go the f**k away!
No disrespect.


Top
#209717 - 07/11/06 12:49 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: BrianS]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
The truth of the Channan Kata's is this, they do still exist and are taught in some circles. How ever most people who ask Questions about them do not really want to know them as in learn them by being taught by somone who know's them. they would however like for someone to write them down or Video tape them so they can compare the difference but are to lazy to do the work and learn the actual kata themselves.

Top
#209718 - 07/11/06 12:52 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: BrianS]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
So Brian should we call you SumDumBoy!

Who's your Daddy!
SenseiEarwax

Top
#209719 - 07/11/06 01:03 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Sayonara!

Top
#209720 - 07/12/06 08:05 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
O.K. I am Back but just briefly! After talking to one of you boys on the phone last night. I still do not know how you were able to get my phone # but O.K. maybe the way I explain things is Harsh. Here I will try again for some REASON I can Longer Find the Questions I asked that you folks Could not answer. So that must mean you do not know the Answers. so I will help you out.

Q.# 1 Why did Ankoh Itosu change the Channans to Pinnans?
A # 1. So he could teach them to the School Children!

Q # 2. Why did he Change the Bunkia Okuden and Oyo?
A # 2. He took out the Deadly Techniques so children would not cause mischeif or hurt themselves or others.

Q # 3.Why Was Karate Changed?
A # 3.To teach it to children and export it to Japan the Chinese parts (flow) were removed.

Q #4.Why was karate changed from Tang Hand (China Hand) to empty Hand. The Kanji was changed in order to export Karate to Japan from Okinawa so the Japanese would like it as they hated anything Chinese.

Q #5.Why do so many people look for old Kata Or the Channan's
A#5.They want to find the missing void in their Karate.

Q #6 Why do people look for teachers on Okinawa?
A # 6 They do not understand that many Masters left Okinawa taking their Karate with them in their Brains and what ever family members could go or that many Karate Masters were killed in the fighting so were their families, they do not understand that Okinawa was Sterilized and Sanatized during W.W.II and most people (Okinawan's) left only new (modern) or Itosu and Funakoshi based Karate was left. One reason is Japan Proper where Funkoshi exported his version of Itosu Karate to remained because the war was not fought on Japan Proper that was the purpose Okinawa to keep the Americans Off the Home Land.Okinawa became the Board on which the war took place.

Q # 7 Is your Karate different than ours?
A # 7 Yes My Karate is not Itosu Based or Funakoshi Based do to the rare Lineage that escaped Okinawa to Hawaii and America.(Let's hide it under their nose.)

Q # 8. Could there be other systems that left Okinawa?
A#8 Sure there can be! Hohan Sokken went to Argentina then back to Okinawa however at first he did not change his karate but he did before he started teaching the American's

Q # 9 Why are their so many styles of Karate, and why do people start their own Karate Systems, and import other systems to create mixed martial arts.

A # 9 They are trying to fill the void put the system back together to find the things that Itosu and Funakoshi took out. That is why many systems combine other systems in to theirs that is also why most people take more than one Martial Art the are trying to fill in the holes!

Top
#209721 - 07/12/06 08:31 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I'm afraid there are a few holes in your logic.

Q.# 1 Why did Ankoh Itosu change the Channans to Pinnans?
A # 1. So he could teach them to the School Children!

I guess it depends what you call school children. In Itosu's day 90% of Okinawan youth didn't attend school. And his teaching was really for secondary school (high school) students to prepare them for possible induction draft into the Japanese military.

A strong case can be made his kata were used to teach drilling (as in military basic training) more than karate, so those youth if drafted would have a better heads up in the Japanese military and to make their bodies stronger from the physical training.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't call them children, rather young adults. (who can be as foolish as children of course, as adults of all ages may be.)

Q # 2. Why did he Change the Bunkia Okuden and Oyo?
A # 2. He took out the Deadly Techniques so children would not cause mischeif or hurt themselves or others.

Referring to my previous answer, the purpose of the training wasn't the study of applying karate. What school administrator would countance students being trained for that. Later in time other instructors would start clubs in various schools and younger students were trained, but that wasn't what Itosu was trying to do.


Q # 3.Why Was Karate Changed?
A # 3.To teach it to children and export it to Japan the Chinese parts (flow) were removed.

All I've seen is real karate always changed, there is not proof otherwise. Instructors who went to Japan met the needs of their students, and it was more for raw physical training than hand to hand combat, which at that time in the world every military had moved into modern weaponry.

Also they didn't teach children. Funakoshi went into the University sytems and the Naval war college. Mabuni went into the universities too. The children issues is specious, get it right. They sold their art as much as for university physical training as they did for self defense, and in time the method of training changed, but then it was the Japanese who did it, not necessarily the Okinawans.

Short cuts trying to understand those times is shoddy thinking.

Q #4.Why was karate changed from Tang Hand (China Hand) to empty Hand. The Kanji was changed in order to export Karate to Japan from Okinawa so the Japanese would like it as they hated anything Chinese.

Of course Japan was ***ing China at that time. They had conquered Korea and all of the other pre WWII fun stuff. If you were going into Japan in the 1920's and wanted to convince any japanese to study your art, you would hardly want to call it Chineses as Japan was doing many nasties to China. The Okinawan's weren't corageous, nor were they stupid. They were trying to find a way to survive in the Depression, Okinawa couldn't feed their families, and many were leaving. The karate teachers were trying to survive or help their families gain position.

Q #5.Why do so many people look for old Kata Or the Channan's
A#5.They want to find the missing void in their Karate.

I really disagree with that. There's nothing missing with any system. The desire to understand the past is to undestand why karate changed and the more that is understood it will help guide how it will change in the future. Karate is change, and it is keeping alive a link with the past. All of the kata always changed in live karate.

Q #6 Why do people look for teachers on Okinawa?
A # 6 They do not understand that many Masters left Okinawa taking their Karate with them in their Brains and what ever family members could go or that many Karate Masters were killed in the fighting so were their families, they do not understand that Okinawa was Sterilized and Sanatized during W.W.II and most people (Okinawan's) left only new (modern) or Itosu and Funakoshi based Karate was left. One reason is Japan Proper where Funkoshi exported his version of Itosu Karate to remained because the war was not fought on Japan Proper that was the purpose Okinawa to keep the Americans Off the Home Land.Okinawa became the Board on which the war took place.

It's a wide world. You are right about the disporia, and there is much karate that is no longer on Okinawa. For one thing we killed at least a 1/3 of the island people in WWII. And many Okinawan long ago moved elsewhere too. But there is no proof that the other Okinawan communities didn't change as time passed either. Oral history may say so, but prove it as there is no proof exactly what was done in Okinawa in the past either, just very brief glimpses and of course Oral History.

Q # 7 Is your Karate different than ours?
A # 7 Yes My Karate is not Itosu Based or Funakoshi Based do to the rare Lineage that escaped Okinawa to Hawaii and America.(Let's hide it under their nose.)

O I like this answer. Of course as my karate isn't Itosu based or Funakoshi based either, and mine came originally from Okianwa not Hawaii.......but prove it makes much difference.


Q # 8. Could there be other systems that left Okinawa?
A#8 Sure there can be! Hohan Sokken went to Argentina then back to Okinawa however at first he did not change his karate but he did before he started teaching the American's

I agree. Soken actually for what 20 or so years worked withing the Okinawan community and only had one non Okinawan student who opened a dojo in South America (that person is now deceased). It would be interesting to see what the karate there represents these days..

Q # 9 Why are their so many styles of Karate, and why do people start their own Karate Systems, and import other systems to create mixed martial arts.

Hmmmm that's a tough one. Probably the same reason Mabuni studied with many instructors and crafted his Shito-ryu, or why Taira trained with many instructors and crafted his kobudo. A logical case might be made that Hiagonna K. and Uechi did the same thing. If anything the entire world just looked at what actually happened in Japan/Okinaw say during the early 1900's and decided if it was good enough for them to do the same.

A # 9 They are trying to fill the void put the system back together to find the things that Itosu and Funakoshi took out. That is why many systems combine other systems in to theirs that is also why most people take more than one Martial Art the are trying to fill in the holes!

Perhaps but I really disagree. For one thing I've studied many systems, some for decades, but I still practice my original. I never tried to fill holes, but took advantage of training opportunities that I could, and in turn simply studied what I was shown.. Then practice it for several decades and it becomes as much a part of you as your original studies. .I know youv'e done the same in your Chinese training. Were you looking for the void in Okinawan karate?

Just some counterpoint discussion.

I don't believe in simple answers, and all I'm trying to suggest is the questions you ask may have more complex answers than the ones you've given.

I may be right and I may very well be wrong, but this is what I've learnt to this point in time.

BTW, pound for pound, the best martial artist I've trained with, the most explosive and most responsive practitioner in any art had a father who trained with Funakoshi in the 30's in Japan.

It's always been the person and what they can do, not the training, which is just part of the picture.

Pleasantly,


Edited by Victor Smith (07/12/06 08:32 AM)
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#209722 - 07/12/06 09:52 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814

Hi Senseiaverywax
This is my opionion.
Ok. If you realy are who you say you are then fine. If you fought during the 2nd world war then fine. The battle of Okinawa was from what I have read horrific. You are not the only person who has had to do as ordered on a battle field to an enemy during time of war so can we get one some things straight please?
Any war is horrific.
This is a karate forum. Not a war forum.
If you as it would seem have some answers to questions then fine.
If you can offer some advise on training then fine.
If you are indeed an ex vet then please stop behaving like an a### h### and talk karate.Your beginning to give ex vets a bad name.
I am not interested in arguing or tit for tat.so would you like to talk karate?

If you would then perhaps let us know your opinions on katas and bunkia?

How they have changed etc?

Thanks

Andy

Top
#209723 - 07/12/06 10:00 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Ed,

I was on Okinawa in the 1940's not the 50's I no you can read but comprehention seems to be a lttle hazy for you.
Unless you are a bunch of panty waisted Mama's Boys!



Ok how about cutting back on the crap? and


Could you anwer some questions please?

The channans why were they created?

What do you see as correct karate?

How about if you give some moves from channons then the bunkia on here?

If I do the research as you suggest then what?


Edited by ANDY44 (07/12/06 10:20 AM)

Top
#209724 - 07/12/06 10:29 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
The truth of the Channan Kata's is this, they do still exist and are taught in some circles. How ever most people who ask Questions about them do not really want to know them as in learn them by being taught by somone who know's them. they would however like for someone to write them down or Video tape them so they can compare the difference but are to lazy to do the work and learn the actual kata themselves.

Cr#p again.
I have never seen them or been shown them. If i were to be shown them then I would like to also be taught the relevent bunkia. If the bunkie is a joke and totaly in practical then I will poss question the kata.

So how about ok the first so many moves with bunkia?

Top
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga