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#209642 - 06/05/06 12:34 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
pardon the joke - not meant as disrespect, just efficient humor at your expense.

It seems only fair, by your measurement my training is a joke. What would you expect from me, perfection of character?

#209643 - 06/05/06 01:03 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Actually Chosho Chibana, or Sakugawa, wasn't really well known. He wasn't called by those names, but was called Tanme or "Old Man" and was often called Chibana, Sakugawa and Matsumura Tanme. For all I know it may have been Nabe Matsumura. I really am not 100% positive of anything as I was taught the history when I was 14 years old. We know this for certain, he had some ties with the Chibana family as well as the Sakugawa family. What you speak of cannot be proven either way, because he is not here and few records still exist. I know of only a few pictures and that is all. These are old pictures of the Tin type, and are not of very good quality. Yes, I am familiar with Al Martins Karate and yes we have some very close ties between our systems. Al and I do a lot of the same techniques and Kata. This proves that we have some kind of lineage that crosses in the past. That is not really knowledge that I would like to share however, as I feel the system I was taught was a Okurimono, or gift, and should be shared sparingly.

Sorry I replied to you Ed, I didn't mean to. Mr. Wax studied with Al's father. He is an old marine. I am not sure if this is him, or if maybe one of his students is posting this. None the less, he should undertsand the reasons to share, and also the reasons to keep quiet. I have trouble believeing this is a student of Al Martin Sr. as they do not speak of Karate very often and never around a group of people, they were trained so much better than this.
Paul Hart

#209644 - 06/05/06 01:14 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: USA

Oh dear lord.

Not ANOTHER "We are the only ones that got the "true" lethal teaching and all the rest of ya got is the watered down stuff for kids" people

Incredable, Ab-so-freaking-incredible.

Some serious problems with that line of, ahm...."reasoning."

1-The story has no support----IF as you claim, then only a very few people know, then how can determine if YOUR telling us the truth?

Since "nobody" but the "chosen few" can verify your claims, its enitrely possible that your making it up.

NOT SAYING YOU ARE--just asking you how "we" can determine whom is telling it stright and whom is putting us on?

2-The Chanan are NOT and never have been "secret" upper divsion kata.
So what putative "advantage" knowing them over say, Kusanku or Bassei is highly questionable.

What is the purpose of keeping such a kata hidden when pretty much everyone already knows and uses Bassi and Kusanku, etc?

Unless there is something really special about the Channan--which NOBODY is claiming.

3-It calls in to serious question the character of many of the most famous masters.
Bascially your position is that they DELIBRATLY lied and made stuff up about what they taught.

And did so for several generations--to serious people that have been training for decades.

Again, you have no proof that anyone did so--much less a good reason why they might have done it--see # 2 above.

4-We know that the Pinan as close enough to the Channa that they can be recoginsed.
I call your attention to statemnts of people that saw BOTH--and SAID "it looks like the Channan-no-kata that I learned, but with some differences."

(my paraphrase--but accurate)

Since various versions of "similar but different" kata exsist in almost every style--there is no reaon to conclude that Channan is any different.

Heck, just look at the all the different versions of Kusanku and Bassi that exsist.

5-The whole "I know the secret handshake and you don't" is getting pretty old.
At least you could try for something NEW.

BTW there are any number of people that could advance the SAME SET OF ARGUMENTS vs ALL of Okinawan Karate as a whole.
That the Okinawans NEVER got any of the "real" stuff to start with.

And each and every argument you can make for why YOU and YOUR teacher are "really' did get the "real" training is the EXACT same arguement as to why the "rest" of us got "real" training as well.

The whole "I know the secret handshake" thing is not only old its a really bad argument besides.

6-How old was Itosu when Funakoshi took karate to Japan?

Was he even still alive?

Bascially your asking us to accept that Itosu--after 50 years of training got up one day and thought--"hmmmmm, in another 30 years one of my students will market karate to japan so I need to make changes TODAY so that 20 years from know he will be able to sell it to the Japanese."

And that makes no sense.

7-Actually I find it questionable that a guy that spent a lifetime training and teaching would suddenly "switch gears" so to speak and change the basis for his instruction wholesale.

Not the least problem here is that Itosu had too many students to "keep the killing secrets" as SECRET.
Even if you "buy" that Itosu did so, how could he possibly have made sure that ALL HIS STUDENTS DID SO.

Answer--he could not possibly have done so.

And comparing direct Itosu students and THEIR teaching shows that they are all pretty much doing the same things.
There is little varience--certianly not enough to conclude that some of them were taught "the real thing: and some were not.

Getting tired of pointing out all the flaws in your "reasoning" here.

I'll let you deal with the ones I have pointed out so far....if you can.

Edited by cxt (06/05/06 01:24 PM)
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#209645 - 06/05/06 01:56 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
There is no way to prove anything. Even if there was, why would anyone want to? It is all a matter of personal belief and opinion, some based on rumors, others based on actual events, but still, we interpret all of them and make our own minds up about the history of just about everything. This is pointless, IMHO.

It is not the style of Karate anyway, it is the person practising it.
Paul Hart

#209646 - 06/05/06 02:13 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: ButterflyPalm]
theoldone Offline

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 172

It is interest to hear that the 'dying' native tongue of Okinawa is Hogen. The sound of this word 'hogen' is the exact sound of what the Fukinese called their native dialect as pronounced in Fukienese.

Just for info, if anyone is interested. The Fukienese dialect is pronounced "Hokkien" (Hawk-KeyAnn) in Fukienese.
We Are Beautiful, Temporary Patterns

#209647 - 06/05/06 02:16 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: theoldone]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Actually "Hogen" means Dialect. The native tongue of Okinawa would be Uchinaguchi, but often the term Hogen is used. At least that is my understanding.
Paul Hart

#209648 - 06/05/06 04:19 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
oldman Tanme? is that you?!

#209649 - 06/05/06 04:54 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
No, but the irony was not lost on me either.

#209650 - 07/08/06 07:19 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
ED, Look at Channan like this!

How many people do you know that were on Okinawa during W.W.II? How many people do you know that went to China During W.W.II. I would say anything is possible. The Channan Kata's are still around. I am not trying to sale anything nor am I promoting a Book. There are many things that are and were kept secret in Uchinan Sui-de. If you were Okinawan and America and Japan came and desicrated your home and made it a war zone and killed your families and friends would you then for money also give them your families Sui-de (Karate) I do not believe you would. Think about this Japan first took Okinawa for themselves then made it their Battlefield to keep America off the Mainland. America took Okinawa by force severe brutal direct force I know I was there! Were any of you? If you read the words of Choki Motobu, Hohan Soken and Chojun Miyagi in their Interviews slowly and carefully and think!; you may find a surprising answer. Sometimes the truth can be overlooked do you pratise Karate for the Cultivation of yourself or something else! Heck I have heard that years ago they made a Cigarete that would not kill people but if it was produced there would be a billion people out of work and broke and many tobacco companies put out of business. So the formula was bought and supposedly destroyed by the industry. Hey where's that flying car of yours parked ed.

P.S. No one has seen air, but we need it, and can see the effects of it.

Edited by senseiaverywax (07/08/06 07:27 PM)

#209651 - 07/08/06 08:20 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
well, if YOU have the secret katas and wish to keep them secret....why mention it? I'd be much more interested in hearing exactly where, when and by who you learned the secret kata from. also, I'd like to hear why Okinawans trusted you above others to share this esoteric knowledge during American occupation. perhaps you've been had? isn't that a possibility? I know I could slap together a made-up kata in a week, I have no doubt Okinawan's could do it quicker and have it look better. BTW, What was your M.O.S. on Okinawa?

direct but respectfully,

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