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#209632 - 12/02/05 10:57 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
So are you saying that these "lost" okinawan kata contain principles and strategies of fighting not contained in most widely known ones? Or is it that they are simply different kata that teach what others already do? I will definitely check out your book when it comes out. From which teachers did you learn this unreleased information?

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#209633 - 12/03/05 12:16 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: medulanet]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Yes! The Okinawan Kata of the original Tang Hand has ways that modern Karate has no trace of. The information that has been removed may surprise you. I am always amazed at what people teach as Karate today. They teach mostly a curriculum that anyone could fully learn in 2 to 3 years. The Old Ways would take 7 to 8 years to absorb all the information. What is left of Karate is a skeleton of what it once was. My teacher has always been and will always be Hanashiro shinyei, a direct student of Chosho (not Chosin) Chibana. I am sure there are a lot of people that do not want to hear this but it is as I see it.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#209634 - 12/03/05 06:25 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

The information that has been removed may surprise you. I am always amazed at what people teach as Karate today.




It does not surprise me at all, because if you look at some of the 'originating' chinese systems found in Fukien province (like 5 Ancestors) the so-called karate systems put out as karate seems so 'elementary'

The old Okinawan founding fathers must either left a lot out to erase its 'chineseness' or were simply not taught the complete curricullum, having spent not really an adeguate length of time in China or with visiting chinese teachers. So we hear this Okinawan master learned one kata from this chinese so-and-so and another one from another chinese so-and-so. And if you are that Okinawan founding master, not having learned the whole system, but having now to teach other Okinawans, what do you do?

It is interest to hear that the 'dying' native tongue of Okinawa is Hogen. The sound of this word 'hogen' is the exact sound of what the Fukinese called their native dialect as pronounced in Fukienese. This may explain how the old Okinawan masters who travelled to Fukien province communicated with their Fukienese teachers.

The old chinese were very insular people and anyone not speaking their language will not be seen in a favourable light.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#209635 - 12/03/05 08:08 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
tiger fist? It was said that one of the chinese men who was famous for teaching in Okinawa was a tiger stylist, the other was a white crane styist. I don't feel like looking up their names right now. The tiger stylist influenced some of the naha te/goju ryu kata. I've also read five ancestor fist and lohan quan, monk fist, were influences. I have been learning several different kung fu styles over the past few years, a majority of the forms I have been learning are crane style and tiger style. Supposedly the lineage of my school is from south china, originating in the south shaolin temple. I would be interested to actually see the kung fu forms that karate kata are said to be derived from, or that inspired them. I think most of them have probably been lost to the sands of time. If you actually know some, I would love to see them in a book. I think the need to preserve and document these things outweighs the risk that some kid will try to learn martial arts from it. It is of immeasurable value to actual practicioners of both kung fu and karate

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#209636 - 12/03/05 10:34 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: WuXing]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
While I may agree with you about the importance of keeping the style alive, I and the rest of my small group have decided long ago that we only teach certain things by direct transmission. I am writing the book but will work around the agreed upon guidelines. I am not so much worried about kids, more about adults trying to con the public with half truths, ect. A sample of this is at this Link to half truths I nor any of my crew would want to be a party to this.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#209637 - 12/03/05 12:00 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Rank testing by video says it all.

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#209638 - 12/05/05 02:48 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
I would always wonder about this guy each time he appeared in BB Mag. He never used to wear the Shorinji Kempo-like Hoi & he never had those atas on his forearms.

Image is everything.

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#209639 - 06/05/06 10:41 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Hello Channan Posters:

My name is Avery Wax, I was born in 1924 I am eighty two years old. I am a student of the late Al Martin Sr.Sensei 1922-1984. Al Maritn Sr. Sensei was one of the first people to teach Shorin Ryu here in the U.S.started our club back in 1951. He learned from James McCollum and Seinsuke Sakugawa and Bull (Usi) Sakugawa on Hawaii. Mr Hart you seem to know alot of facts but there is one or two you are a bit confused on in the Lineage you claim. "My teacher has always been and will always be Hanashiro shinyei, a direct student of Chosho (not Chosin) Chibana". The actual person you are referring to was actually named Chosho Sakugawa not Chibana this is a common mistake made first by the propagator of the wonder okinawa website then the perfectual Gov. site. Chosin and Chosho Sakugawa were brothers there was never a Chosho Chibana however Chosin Chibana was named after Chosin Sakugawa. My bet is your Karate and Al Martin Jr.'s Karate look just alike. and this will explain why! Al Martin Jr.'s Lineage and my own is Chosin Sakugawa (1837-1921) to Bull "Usi" Sakugawa (1881-1975) to James McCollum (1915-1979) and Al Martin Sr.(1922-1984) to Avery Wax and Alton Martin Jr.

Mr. Hart your Lineage is probably Chosho "Chibana" Sakugawa who was Chosin Sakugawa's younger brother (1839-1919) to your supposed teacher Hanashiro Shinyei.

Now The Channan Kata Myth debunked by Avery "Black Ace" Wax.

Yes the Channan's did and still do exist with some school's
No they do not look like the Pinnan/Heians. They are much simpler. The reason most search for them I do not Know Why?
They are not Magical just were not made Popular. Why are they not popular that is easy Ankoh Itosu did not propagate or populate leathel Karate but rather Karate for Children as did his student Gichein Funakoshi hence Pinnan/Heian. This School Children's or School yard Karate is what most of the world calls Karate and even Tae Kwon Do.

Ankoh Itosu Invented the Pinnans His student Giechin Funakoshi changed their name to Heian for his Shotokan Choi Hung Hi the founder or Tae kwon Do called them Pyng Ahn he learned them from Funakoshi who learned them from Itosu they are all Ankoh Itosu's creation no Matter what they are called. Enough Said yet! do you momma's boys get it now!
The jokes on all of you. thats why the Okinawan's do'nt go berzerk like you mag pies. They Know the Channan's but ain't tellin ya! Gives them the Edge over the rest of the world except for the Chineses and a few Lucky Americans.

Itosu Had no reason to continue teaching the Channan Kata's because they were very Chinese utilized a few Killing Oyo and were not what he could sell to the okinawan public Schools, and Funakoshi could not market them to Japan.

Avery Wax
Semper Fi!

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#209640 - 06/05/06 11:33 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Enough Said yet! do you momma's boys get it now!
The jokes on all of you. thats why the Okinawan's do'nt go berzerk like you mag pies.




A bit abrasive for a first post. Perhaps "senseibikiniwax" would be a more apt moniker.


Edited by oldman (06/05/06 12:24 PM)

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#209641 - 06/05/06 11:38 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Hi Avery,

any relation?
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...e=1&fpart=3

Here's the common knowledge:

The last to know the kata in the form it came from China with principles intact was Itosu's sensei, Matsumura.

take Pinan Shodan, Nidan and Yondan, mix it with kusanku and the composite is what there is left of the Channan kata.

what people have been claiming for years, is in knowing the true Channan. anyone claiming such a thing is either suspect or mistaken. It was lost and composites were subsequently made and sold as 'the lost kata'.

I suspect if there was a 'joke' in this, it's the people who claim so loudly to know the true Chinese Channan.

pardon the directness - not meant as disrespect, just efficient communication.

-Ed

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