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#209712 - 07/11/06 08:15 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
What did I tell you?

This is just a bunch of kids jacking around on the web while schools out.

You can almost set your watch by it.

Long enough into summer that the kids are running out of things to do---they are getting bored--so they come here.

Its not even any fun to kick these guy around--all they can do is call people names and use profanity.

Who can't curse and make "potty" jokes????

Now "I'm" getting bored.


Edited by cxt (07/11/06 08:16 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#209713 - 07/11/06 09:46 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: cxt]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
I am still here! I still know the Channan's and you can to!

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#209714 - 07/11/06 09:52 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

"yawn"

My guess is not for much longer
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#209715 - 07/11/06 10:01 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: Ed_Morris]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Ed,

I was on Okinawa in the 1940's not the 50's I no you can read but comprehention seems to be a lttle hazy for you.

I know you guys are probably can't affrod to come and train with me. (thats O.K.) And contrary to what you think I am not rubbing it in your face that I know the Channans and you don't heck you know Itosu's Pinan's and I don't. So I got a Solution for you lets put all this B.S. effort into some Reasearch you guys seem more school smart than I do so let try to find you the answers your looking for! Unless you are a bunch of panty waisted Mama's Boys!

We Need to compile a list of everyone that saw or supposedly did Channan kata's and what they said and go from there. Here is my 2 C's: of the folks I know of!
Yui Fei
Li ning Jan
Peichin Takahara
Kusanku
Tode Sakugawa
Sokon Bushi Matsumura
Choyu Motobu
Choki Motobu
Ankoh Itosu
Ankoh Azato
Kosoku Matsumora
Chojun Miyagi

Now lets keep going...

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#209716 - 07/11/06 10:06 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
senseibuttwax and sumdumboy,

Both of you guys are just a couple of clowns.

I'll put my redneck backyard goju up against you losers anyday. sheesh......the smell is killin'me.
The way both of you have disrespected my forum friends here has realy peeved me off! Go the f**k away!
No disrespect.


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#209717 - 07/11/06 12:49 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: BrianS]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
The truth of the Channan Kata's is this, they do still exist and are taught in some circles. How ever most people who ask Questions about them do not really want to know them as in learn them by being taught by somone who know's them. they would however like for someone to write them down or Video tape them so they can compare the difference but are to lazy to do the work and learn the actual kata themselves.

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#209718 - 07/11/06 12:52 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: BrianS]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
So Brian should we call you SumDumBoy!

Who's your Daddy!
SenseiEarwax

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#209719 - 07/11/06 01:03 PM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Sayonara!

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#209720 - 07/12/06 08:05 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
O.K. I am Back but just briefly! After talking to one of you boys on the phone last night. I still do not know how you were able to get my phone # but O.K. maybe the way I explain things is Harsh. Here I will try again for some REASON I can Longer Find the Questions I asked that you folks Could not answer. So that must mean you do not know the Answers. so I will help you out.

Q.# 1 Why did Ankoh Itosu change the Channans to Pinnans?
A # 1. So he could teach them to the School Children!

Q # 2. Why did he Change the Bunkia Okuden and Oyo?
A # 2. He took out the Deadly Techniques so children would not cause mischeif or hurt themselves or others.

Q # 3.Why Was Karate Changed?
A # 3.To teach it to children and export it to Japan the Chinese parts (flow) were removed.

Q #4.Why was karate changed from Tang Hand (China Hand) to empty Hand. The Kanji was changed in order to export Karate to Japan from Okinawa so the Japanese would like it as they hated anything Chinese.

Q #5.Why do so many people look for old Kata Or the Channan's
A#5.They want to find the missing void in their Karate.

Q #6 Why do people look for teachers on Okinawa?
A # 6 They do not understand that many Masters left Okinawa taking their Karate with them in their Brains and what ever family members could go or that many Karate Masters were killed in the fighting so were their families, they do not understand that Okinawa was Sterilized and Sanatized during W.W.II and most people (Okinawan's) left only new (modern) or Itosu and Funakoshi based Karate was left. One reason is Japan Proper where Funkoshi exported his version of Itosu Karate to remained because the war was not fought on Japan Proper that was the purpose Okinawa to keep the Americans Off the Home Land.Okinawa became the Board on which the war took place.

Q # 7 Is your Karate different than ours?
A # 7 Yes My Karate is not Itosu Based or Funakoshi Based do to the rare Lineage that escaped Okinawa to Hawaii and America.(Let's hide it under their nose.)

Q # 8. Could there be other systems that left Okinawa?
A#8 Sure there can be! Hohan Sokken went to Argentina then back to Okinawa however at first he did not change his karate but he did before he started teaching the American's

Q # 9 Why are their so many styles of Karate, and why do people start their own Karate Systems, and import other systems to create mixed martial arts.

A # 9 They are trying to fill the void put the system back together to find the things that Itosu and Funakoshi took out. That is why many systems combine other systems in to theirs that is also why most people take more than one Martial Art the are trying to fill in the holes!

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#209721 - 07/12/06 08:31 AM Re: Pinan/Heian vs Channan [Re: senseiaverywax]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I'm afraid there are a few holes in your logic.

Q.# 1 Why did Ankoh Itosu change the Channans to Pinnans?
A # 1. So he could teach them to the School Children!

I guess it depends what you call school children. In Itosu's day 90% of Okinawan youth didn't attend school. And his teaching was really for secondary school (high school) students to prepare them for possible induction draft into the Japanese military.

A strong case can be made his kata were used to teach drilling (as in military basic training) more than karate, so those youth if drafted would have a better heads up in the Japanese military and to make their bodies stronger from the physical training.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't call them children, rather young adults. (who can be as foolish as children of course, as adults of all ages may be.)

Q # 2. Why did he Change the Bunkia Okuden and Oyo?
A # 2. He took out the Deadly Techniques so children would not cause mischeif or hurt themselves or others.

Referring to my previous answer, the purpose of the training wasn't the study of applying karate. What school administrator would countance students being trained for that. Later in time other instructors would start clubs in various schools and younger students were trained, but that wasn't what Itosu was trying to do.


Q # 3.Why Was Karate Changed?
A # 3.To teach it to children and export it to Japan the Chinese parts (flow) were removed.

All I've seen is real karate always changed, there is not proof otherwise. Instructors who went to Japan met the needs of their students, and it was more for raw physical training than hand to hand combat, which at that time in the world every military had moved into modern weaponry.

Also they didn't teach children. Funakoshi went into the University sytems and the Naval war college. Mabuni went into the universities too. The children issues is specious, get it right. They sold their art as much as for university physical training as they did for self defense, and in time the method of training changed, but then it was the Japanese who did it, not necessarily the Okinawans.

Short cuts trying to understand those times is shoddy thinking.

Q #4.Why was karate changed from Tang Hand (China Hand) to empty Hand. The Kanji was changed in order to export Karate to Japan from Okinawa so the Japanese would like it as they hated anything Chinese.

Of course Japan was ***ing China at that time. They had conquered Korea and all of the other pre WWII fun stuff. If you were going into Japan in the 1920's and wanted to convince any japanese to study your art, you would hardly want to call it Chineses as Japan was doing many nasties to China. The Okinawan's weren't corageous, nor were they stupid. They were trying to find a way to survive in the Depression, Okinawa couldn't feed their families, and many were leaving. The karate teachers were trying to survive or help their families gain position.

Q #5.Why do so many people look for old Kata Or the Channan's
A#5.They want to find the missing void in their Karate.

I really disagree with that. There's nothing missing with any system. The desire to understand the past is to undestand why karate changed and the more that is understood it will help guide how it will change in the future. Karate is change, and it is keeping alive a link with the past. All of the kata always changed in live karate.

Q #6 Why do people look for teachers on Okinawa?
A # 6 They do not understand that many Masters left Okinawa taking their Karate with them in their Brains and what ever family members could go or that many Karate Masters were killed in the fighting so were their families, they do not understand that Okinawa was Sterilized and Sanatized during W.W.II and most people (Okinawan's) left only new (modern) or Itosu and Funakoshi based Karate was left. One reason is Japan Proper where Funkoshi exported his version of Itosu Karate to remained because the war was not fought on Japan Proper that was the purpose Okinawa to keep the Americans Off the Home Land.Okinawa became the Board on which the war took place.

It's a wide world. You are right about the disporia, and there is much karate that is no longer on Okinawa. For one thing we killed at least a 1/3 of the island people in WWII. And many Okinawan long ago moved elsewhere too. But there is no proof that the other Okinawan communities didn't change as time passed either. Oral history may say so, but prove it as there is no proof exactly what was done in Okinawa in the past either, just very brief glimpses and of course Oral History.

Q # 7 Is your Karate different than ours?
A # 7 Yes My Karate is not Itosu Based or Funakoshi Based do to the rare Lineage that escaped Okinawa to Hawaii and America.(Let's hide it under their nose.)

O I like this answer. Of course as my karate isn't Itosu based or Funakoshi based either, and mine came originally from Okianwa not Hawaii.......but prove it makes much difference.


Q # 8. Could there be other systems that left Okinawa?
A#8 Sure there can be! Hohan Sokken went to Argentina then back to Okinawa however at first he did not change his karate but he did before he started teaching the American's

I agree. Soken actually for what 20 or so years worked withing the Okinawan community and only had one non Okinawan student who opened a dojo in South America (that person is now deceased). It would be interesting to see what the karate there represents these days..

Q # 9 Why are their so many styles of Karate, and why do people start their own Karate Systems, and import other systems to create mixed martial arts.

Hmmmm that's a tough one. Probably the same reason Mabuni studied with many instructors and crafted his Shito-ryu, or why Taira trained with many instructors and crafted his kobudo. A logical case might be made that Hiagonna K. and Uechi did the same thing. If anything the entire world just looked at what actually happened in Japan/Okinaw say during the early 1900's and decided if it was good enough for them to do the same.

A # 9 They are trying to fill the void put the system back together to find the things that Itosu and Funakoshi took out. That is why many systems combine other systems in to theirs that is also why most people take more than one Martial Art the are trying to fill in the holes!

Perhaps but I really disagree. For one thing I've studied many systems, some for decades, but I still practice my original. I never tried to fill holes, but took advantage of training opportunities that I could, and in turn simply studied what I was shown.. Then practice it for several decades and it becomes as much a part of you as your original studies. .I know youv'e done the same in your Chinese training. Were you looking for the void in Okinawan karate?

Just some counterpoint discussion.

I don't believe in simple answers, and all I'm trying to suggest is the questions you ask may have more complex answers than the ones you've given.

I may be right and I may very well be wrong, but this is what I've learnt to this point in time.

BTW, pound for pound, the best martial artist I've trained with, the most explosive and most responsive practitioner in any art had a father who trained with Funakoshi in the 30's in Japan.

It's always been the person and what they can do, not the training, which is just part of the picture.

Pleasantly,


Edited by Victor Smith (07/12/06 08:32 AM)
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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