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#209548 - 11/30/05 12:06 AM Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips
phatkata Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 7
hi everyone...

does anyone have those video clips available???.

pls pvt message me.

thank you.

phatkata.

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#209549 - 02/13/06 02:03 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: phatkata]
gojumaster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 46
Scot Mertz, over at http://www.katamasters.com/ has a video posted claiming to be Ryuei-Ryu's Ohan kata.

I'm hoping to hear back from him as to where he learned this form, as I understand it's considered one of the most advanced kata of the system.
_________________________
Best Regards, Russ Smith http://www.Goju-Ryu.info/

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#209550 - 02/13/06 03:06 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: gojumaster]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15814140/an/0/page/0

...he might make you buy the videos first.

he admittedly only 'dabbled' in Ryuei Ryu...yet he knows the most advanced kata of the system?

also he claims that he had to use his MA in combat in Iraq. He blended Shotokan and Judo.

Quote:


I also have dabbled in Ryuei Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Judo and Genkukan Jujitsu. Every system has positive points, and I really like some of the training aspects of systems like Judo (I actually hold a Yondan in Kodokan Judo).

So that is kind of what started it. The next big thing was my time in Iraq. I was in a situation where I actually had to defend myself unarmed. That really changed my outlook on everything. That is when I decided that straight punching and kicking systems aren't really effective in close combat. Don't get me wrong, I've spent over 20 years doing Shotokan, and I love it, but it's not practical. Judo isn't much better. What I was forced to do was more inbetween the two. That is the basis for Saishu Ryu.

If you e-mail me on the side I'll send you the whole Saishu Ryu course. It's not a bad set up. Lots and lots of escapes, and breaking kata down into one-two type combinations. I teach on base here at Fort Meade, and I'd really like to give something to the guys who are going over to the war zones to prepair them for what they might encounter. I dont want anyone to have to do what I have done, and I'd rather them be prepaired.




oh yeah and he's a 27 year old, 9th dan, style inventor. So he's teaching young adults on base the 200 kata he knows plus Shotokan and Judo ...and this makes them prepared how exactly? The military probably don't care...as long as he's giving the soldiers a workout and can still pull a trigger after class...

http://www.karatethejapaneseway.com/kara...b9063a2b675d1ac


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#209551 - 02/13/06 03:53 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: phatkata]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
original question: no clips...but this:
http://www.kamikazeusa.com/webstore/cate...38A91069D56D32B

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#209552 - 02/13/06 11:57 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Oooooooohhhh...

I'm not buying it either. It's the old I have the most combat effective system ever con.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#209553 - 03/20/06 02:10 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: phatkata]
SaishuRyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 28
most of these katas are at www.katamasters.com. I know Mr. Mertz is working on getting up all of these videos for members of his site.

For all you guys who raise the flag so much, maybe you should go train with the guy sometime. He is really freaking good at what he does and very down to earth, that is why the military has him teaching people.

Mr. Mertz has recently rejected the 9th dan given to him by the USMA and has dropped down to a 6th dan which was given to him by Masayuki Azato. He's really trying to be on the up and up, but for some reason jerks on these forums don't seem to see that.

I trained with Mr. Mertz for over 2 years, and I have to say in that time I learned more that I ever thought was possible. I was taught and worked on over 70 different kata in his karate class. When I was a student of his for the military class it wasn't karate as much. More escapes and how and where to strike people. It was highly educational and I picked up a lot from it.

Tomo

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#209554 - 03/20/06 03:47 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
SaishuRyu

Without putting words into other peoples mouths, I think what folks are getting at is that kata are pretty specifc as to "how" they are done in given style.

I could learn the sequence of say Shotokan's version of Bassi-dai in a couple of hours, but being a Goju person all my techniques/stances/movement etc would be driven by the methodolgy of goju--not shotokan.

If I then taught you the kata I learned, you would be getting a goju persons version of a Shotokan kata, which means that you will be missing stuff, maybe a little maybe a lot.

Another thing to consider is the level of the person that teachs you, I can learn the gross movements and kata from tapes, BUT, I miss A LOT of the important stuff that way.

Which is a long way of asking just how much training the person in question has had with a given kata and under whose instruction to learn them.

I don't think people are questioning his skills--just where, when and how he learned the kata and how long he practiced them under whose watchful eye?

That kind of thing.


Edited by cxt (03/20/06 04:41 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#209555 - 03/22/06 11:05 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: Ed_Morris]
SaishuRyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 28
Quote:


he admittedly only 'dabbled' in Ryuei Ryu...yet he knows the most advanced kata of the system?

also he claims that he had to use his MA in combat in Iraq. He blended Shotokan and Judo.





Ed, you know he's going to be in Boston on the 1st of April. Maybe if you think he is so full of BS you should go check out his seminar. You seem to be all talk, so how about you go and put your money where your mouth is. BTW, his seminar is free.

Tomo

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#209556 - 03/22/06 11:23 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Sai

Ok, since you decided to vent your spleen at Ed rather than address my post--which I know you saw and I know you read.

And seeing as how you have appointed yourself the "answer man" for the person in question.

Why don't you provide the answers to the direct questions I asked???

Don't know the answers?

Then please do some basic reseach prior to getting nasty.

If you don't know the answers, you should not be posting such "nasty grams."

Legit questions have been asked, legit points have been raised.

Neither can be delt with by having an e-fit.


Edited by cxt (03/22/06 03:58 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#209557 - 03/22/06 02:21 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Saishiryu,

I understand you believe in your friend/instructor/mentor and his history. I think you have to take it another step and look at why other opinions question his choices.

First all systems and groups are not created equal. It is unfair if you join a group and don't find what you're looking for. But after a few bad choices, there is the potential that the problem may be in the manner of choice and not just the groups in question.

The question of course is does those experiences justify creating another system?

Or one was in Iraq. Well I have had students I've trained in both Iraq wars. Their experiences didn't lead them to create a new system. Sounds like your friend had a horrible time that he had to find something new by joining a few sorts of training. I hope it's working for him, truly.

But many of us have trained in multiple systems (including multiple ranks on occassion) and didn't find a need to create a new system in the process.

The truth is in a minute I can find hundreds of created systems, all with similar histories. I've seen the products of many of them, and I truly hope your friends system is as good as you suggest. Most I've seen were rather a waste of time, from my persepective.

Understand our exasperation with continuing similar stories.

One of my instructors, whose father trained with Funakoshi in Japan in the 1930's, teaches a blend of Shotokan, Siliat/Tjimande, Aikdio and Kobudo, but they didn't create a new system. Their Shotokan is just Shotokan, just from their family perspective. And his father fought against the Japanese in Indonesia through WWII, often using the arts he studied in Japan.

If your freind's style has merit let's discuss it in say 50 or 60 years when the real proof exists. That future generations find a reason to keep it going and not mutate it into something else.

I wish you friends clinic a success in Boston on 04/01, but teaching my own classes in NH takes precedence.

BTW his site isn't working either.

Pleasantly,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#209558 - 03/25/06 11:28 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: Victor Smith]
SaishuRyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 28
Well I have talked to Sensei lately about this whole matter. What he told me about why he created his own system is that he wasn't happy with any of the other systems that he had trained in. So he broke away from everyone and just wanted to create a system that he would be happy practicing. I talked to him for a good 2 hours earlier today about this. I didn't realize that in his personal practice, he is doing stuff from kung fu systems, yoga, and a few other things. He said that he didn't want to use a name that was already in use because he didn't want to give off the impression that he was doing a set system, but instead his own thing. Sensei Mertz was always an innovator, and every class that I attended of his was totally different than the previous class.

I do agree though with Victor, time will tell if Saishu Ryu will stand the test of time. Right now Sensei is promoting Saishu Ryu and traveling some with it, but even he said that he's not worried about who joins or anything as long as he can go somewhere and people learn something from him then his goal is complete.

Hope this helps clear up some stuff. I have a lot of respect for Sensei Mertz and he has always been very straight forward and humble and I just hate seeing people bad mouth him without actually training with him.

Tomo

Tomo Kagawa
www.saishuryu.com

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#209559 - 03/29/06 12:21 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
SaishuRyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 28
Sensei would kill me if he knew that I was doing this. But here is Paiku.

Sensei Mertz performing Paiku Kata

This thing is about 10 mb, so you might want to download it.

Tomo

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#209560 - 03/29/06 01:44 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
sorry, lost track of the thread and your replies. Your point is taken, but forgive me if I'm no longer interested in going to Boston this saturday...the weather is suppossed to be nice for a change so I'll still be busy doing nothing in particular except I'll be doing it outside.

I'm sure he's a good sensei for you and I'm truely happy you enjoy what his training has to offer you. I gave my first impression armchair opinion before you came on and gave your facinating and enlightening in-depth and in-person experience. so your testimony goes undisputed from me. have a good time.

[edit] didn't notice this till now, and since you attempt to make it personal: 'put my money where my mouth is?' does that mean I have to buy the 200 kata DVD in order to evaluate it?

on topic: Just wondering, where did he learn the Paiku kata from? I'll check with that source you give me for you...as I'm sure you'll someday want to know exactly where your kata come from.

my question was going to be withdrawn, but since I noticed the comments directed at me personally...my original question still stands:
Quote:


he admittedly only 'dabbled' in Ryuei Ryu...yet he knows the most advanced kata of the system?



tell me how that is possible.

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#209561 - 03/29/06 05:11 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: Ed_Morris]
SaishuRyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 28
Quote:


he admittedly only 'dabbled' in Ryuei Ryu...yet he knows the most advanced kata of the system? tell me how that is possible.




I have asked Sensei about this very thing last time we talked. He said that he learned these kata from a guy named Masayuki Irei when he was stationed in Okinawa. These kata aren't just native only to Ryuei Ryu. They are old kata, and are taught in a few different systems. His 'dabbling' in Ryuei Ryu is that he trained with Sensei Sakumoto for nearly 6 months before he left the island. Sensei Irei teaches Saifa, Channan, Naihanchi, Sanseru, Niseishi, Pachu, Heiku, Paiku, Anan, and Pechurin. He picked up Ohan and Paiho from a Sensei who taught another family flavor of Goju Ryu. Hopes this helps with your question.

Tomo

P.S. I didn't mean to make it personal, I was getting at if you had so many questions maybe you should go to his seminar and ask him yourself.

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#209562 - 03/29/06 09:29 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
fair enough...thanks for answering the question.

oh yes, and btw...according to his website, he has a 'black belt' in the following systems:
http://www.saishuryu.com/info.php
http://www.saishuryu.com/articles/jan2006.php

Shotokan
RyueiRyu
Genkaku Jujitsu
Seito Shorin Ryu
Shorinji Ryu
Kodokan Judo - yondan
also,
"Expert instructor in Sambo"

So dabbling in Ryuei Ryu for 6 months on Okinawa gets you a black belt nowadays. cool.

I'm interested, was it this USMA that he mentions his 9th dan qualifying award on another forum where we can get rank?
http://www.mararts.org/forms/memformhtml.htm
cost for 9th dan certificate: $350

but the 6th dan only costs $225...so yeah, the 6th dan is definitely a better deal since it's $25 dollar increments per dan, but after 6th it jumps up to $50 per dan. wise choice.

but then,
Quote:

SECTION ONE - TIME IN GRADE REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL MARTIAL ARTS

For all class ranks below black belt and for First Degree Black Belt, the required time in grade is two months. For the Black Belt ranks of 2nd through 10th Degree, the time in grade requirement is the same number of years in grade as the number of the rank held. That is, from 2nd to 3rd Degree, the time in grade is two years, and so forth.




so that would mean from 1st dan to 9th dan is 36 years....but your hansi is only 27 years old. hmmmm...

thanks again for the info. Domo, Tomo.

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#209563 - 03/30/06 09:01 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: Ed_Morris]
SaishuRyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 28
If you have such a problem with what Sensei is doing then how about you email him and ask. I sent you his email address via pm.

Tomo

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#209564 - 03/30/06 10:34 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Last night a visiting friend (in Goju) brought a video of Paiku kata by Tsuguo Sakumoto. This is the same form your instructor is showing, and we literally compared the two kata side by side (Placing the PC next to the TV). The Sakumoto version is vastly different and imo advanced mechanics and body dynamics.

Of course there is a long tradition of public performance of Okinawan kata holding much back, with only a few exceptions.

I will not comment on one being better or worse than the next. That's everyone's own business. Video rarely shows the entire path behind the performance, but my preference is to be trained by the most advanced instructor I could find.

Ryuei-Ryu has beecome a bit of a fad in international forms competition since Tsuguo Sakumoto dominated the scene with these kata. And since his videos are available I've seen a few schools start including them in their instruction locally. I have no idea what the source of their training is, either hands on or from viewing competition and videos.

From a tactical point of view, I don't find them better or worse than any other serious system of training.

The governing Okinawn Karate Association does not include these kata on their approved list of competition forms, and Tsuguo Sakumoto is on their board. Their rational is they don't include systems that were not taught publically before 1950.

We all are influenced by our teachers. My own 10 years of study in Shotokan are permanately influenced by the dyanmics and applications taught by my friend and instructor. When I look at most of the rest in Shotokan, they never have the same appeal. Doesn't make others better or worse, just different and uninteresting because of my training.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#209565 - 03/30/06 10:58 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'll share the e-mail I've sent him:
Quote:

Hi Scot,

My name is Ed Morris, I frequent popular martial arts forums and I've been seeing your katas referenced. I have no problems with what and how people train since I have my own training to focus on. First, some genuine compliments... your website design is very nice. Your military service is respected. My questions are not without respect...they are technical questions concerning kata, I'm not suggesting as to the effectiveness of your style or the quality of your teaching...thats up to your direct students to decide.

There are three kinds of kata clips that are typically posted in a forum:

1. For evaluation - the creator of the kata vids wishes to recieve feedback from the forum members as to performance, accuracy, etc.

2. For reference - the creator who has studied the particular kata for a while simply posts their kata to document the movements and so others can get a gist of what the kata's basic shape is....or for a relative comparison to other versions.

3. For sale - the creator is marketing a sample of their product by posting some of the clip links which carry the viewer to the selling website....or marketed via other means.


In either one of those cases, the same question always seems to come up, "where did the kata come from?". I think it's a fair question.


so in the case of your clips, I looked into it a bit just by visiting your site and forums, and couldn't find the answer to that.


The only clue really is apparently, during a less than 10 year period- mention of visits to Japan from Hawaii for Shotokan testing, and a few months in Okinawa.


you mention a yudansha grade (black belt) in the following:

Shotokan - your base style.
RyueiRyu - Okinawa from Sakamoto?
Genkaku Jujitsu - never heard of it.

Seito Shorin Ryu - Okinawa from Kise?
Shorinji Ryu - Japan or Okinawa from?
Kodokan Judo - 4th dan - you are a registered 4th dan from the kodokan in Japan?
also,
"Expert instructor in Sambo" - I assume could be from instructor courses on military bases.



Here's the problem, for instance: people looking for a Ryuei forms clip for research or comparritive study are most likely seeing your forms presented from a Shotokan understanding. This doesn't represent the form or the style well enough for sale,research or honest evaluation. While it is always our right to do so anyway, it isn't always the moral thing. just because something is sellable does not mean it should be sold or distributed I guess is what I'm trying to get across.


I'm not an ultra-traditionalist that thinks kata should never change, and I agree with your site when you wrote to that effect. That does not include just learning the approximate movements of another style's kata over a weekend and be teaching and selling it on monday morning. I exagurate for effect, but what you are doing (as far as the kata clips) kindof seems like this to people who have worked one and only one particular style and kata set for decades. I myself have been in Okinawan Goju, formally and independantly training for 32 years.


Please understand where I'm coming from and don't take this note as an insult. I suggest, if you recieve my message well, to be honest and limit your kata set that you put out there to your base style of Shotokan kata. But if I'm wrong, then I appologize in advance and your clips won't recieve any further questioning attention from me.


Take care and I wish you well.

-Ed Morris




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#209566 - 03/30/06 11:46 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Ed

For what its worth, I have to agree.

I don't know the guy, his style of anything about him--other than what he posts on his website.

At 27 years of age those are some impressive accomplishments.

One thing I note is that nowhere (least I can't find it) is there any mention of exactly whom taught him the arts practiced and where and how how long he trained with them.

I am only speaking from my personal experience here, but one thing that I note about Japanese, Okinawan, Chinese teachers is that they are very proud of whom taught them--they are thier direct link to the styles they study.

Thus informatiom as to whom it was that taught them is readily available.

If I had such ranks in so many arts you can bet I would have whom I studied with, for how long and where, in a VERY easy to find location.

Again, maybe I'm just slow and not looking in the right place.

If so will be happy to change my opinion should futher details become clear.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#209567 - 03/30/06 09:24 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: Ed_Morris]
SaishuRyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 28
Quote:

I'll share the e-mail I've sent him




I read over your email that you sent Sensei. I don't think that the phatkata guy really cares where the kata come from. I have seen this guy on other forums and he is always trying to leach kata from people. I believe he is some Shito Ryu guy who tries to get kata from people online and learn them. I suggest that if someone want's to learn Ryuei Ryu they should find a Ryuei Ryu instructor. Saishu Ryu isn't quite Ryuei Ryu if you get my drift.

Also from the sounds of your email I don't know if Sensei would write you back or not, he is a humble guy and all but it's a little condensending. Oh well, just my thought.

Tomo

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#209568 - 03/30/06 09:48 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
the message to him was sincere.

In spirit, the idea is to provide and exchange the best information available, not just any info.

If you knew the thread creator's M.O. then why provide it? If you knew the clips weren't a good representation of ryuei-ryu, then why not disclaimer it?

my suggestion to you is next time, before providing a clip link, preface it with something like:

"Here is a link to what the approximate movements of the kata look like...but to learn Ryuei Ryu kata they should by taught by a Ryuei Ryu instructor."

For Scot, I suggest he doesn't make any available that are not his style of proficiency.

...but they are only suggestions. Do as you please and observe the solicitation rules of the site, and I'll be silent about it from now on.

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#209569 - 04/02/06 09:48 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: Ed_Morris]
SaishuRyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 28
I'm just curious if sensei wrote you back. I dont think he will with that email.

Tomo

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#209570 - 04/02/06 10:35 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video clips [Re: SaishuRyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thank-you for reminding me to mention it...he did write back a respectable, lengthy and detailed account of his full martial arts training background. Also he was kind enough to share his philosophy of what he hopes to accomplish in his Art.

Thats alot more than I've heard any other 10th dan system founder (and at twice his age) be willing to share and risk being candid with a perfect stranger. Gotta respect that, reguardless if people agree on his technical points or not.

I didn't ask for permission to post his reply here, so I won't since I don't think it was his intention to broadcast it. ...unless he lets me know otherwise.

While my view hasn't really changed on the technical side of the argument...I will say, he seems like a very nice guy willing to share his Art with anyone who is interested.

I'm glad he was able to receive my message as positive.

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#209571 - 04/04/06 12:55 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video c [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ryueiryu Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 2
Hello everyone,

As a beginner to the whole forum concept, please forgive my lack of familiarity with the requirements of posting or responding. A good friend told me of this post and said I should respond. After reading a bit, I agreed. I hope some of you will as well, after I post.

There seems to be some question regarding the kata Ohan and Paiho of the Ryueiryu system. I have seen a variety of non Ryueiryu practitioner versions of what they believe to be Ryueiryu kata both live, in person and on the internet. However well intended, none of the persons that I saw performed the core concepts of Ryueiryu and it was fairly obvious that they were never trained in the art. I don't know any of these people and it's just an observation.

The reason that myself and others that are at a certain stage of practice, research and development stay away from the modern (instant gratification) community, is due to a difference of view point, training and background making it less enjoyable to associate or converse on a regular basis.

Without getting into politics, Sakumoto Sensei is certainly one of the most popular Karate trainers in the world. His victories in competition are unmatched and legendary among sport karate circles. He is also the most renown of the Ryueiryu instructors of his era. The fact remains, however, he is NOT the only teacher of Ryueiryu in Japan and is NOT the standard bearer of the system. His group, while the most publically known is NOT the governing body for the style or system. Techniques have been changed to suit the competitive mindset. There are techniques, waza, kobudo, and several sections of study that make the complete art of Ryueiryu that were not taught to members of his era by Nakaima Kenko Sensei. This is clear by observing the published video and book presentations. The very titles of these publications state "ALL KATA of Ryueiryu". Don't you wonder? Things that make you go .........Hhmm?

I believe it is completely incorrect to refer to the kata Ohan as one of the most advanced in the Ryueiryu system. Unique? Yes. Rare? Yes. Most Advanced? I don't think so. Ohan was just not taught to many people (as were many of the buki-ho used in advanced Ryueiryu). RYUEIRYU NO PAIHO HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO Go Ken Ki no Hakutsuru, although there are some similarities (this is true of many kata). The embusen and kokyuho are completely different. I can state this because I am familiar with both of these kata.

Some people, including Shitoryu practitioners, are under the impression that Mr. Hayashi (Teruo) learned all the Ryueiryu kata and weaponry. This is also incorrect. While he did learn some of the kata, he did NOT learn all of the content of the system of Ryueiryu emptyhand art or kobudo.

Most written information widely available in the english language about the Ryueiryu system is, to a large degree inaccurate. There are more kata that are contained in the system, various categories of martial strategy and technique, health and wellness practices and other "things" that make the system an obviously chinese based martial arts system, as opposed to a "style" of karate.

I have no comment about anyone specifically. I think there is enough of that in the martial arts community. It's sad that a wonderful art of discipline has been reduced by some to be a vehicle for certain people to take advantage of others in an effort to glorify themselves.

I hope that I did not offend anyone. It was my intention only to clarify a point or two to obviously interested parties. I DO NOT TEACH RYUEIRYU PUBLICLY, but there are people who use the Ryueiryu name and will gladly teach whatever they can, if you pay them. I don't judge or care, but I keep my teachers way. Among those that do teach publicly the USA, if you're curious try to find someone that learned (or has even seen) either Ohan or Paiho, not to mention any thing else. Ask questions. You'll be surprised.

As far as high dan ranking for young people and founding of a system is concerned, I have 36 years invested in the active study and participation of the martial arts on many levels. I just think that whole topic misses the very point of what karate, sempai kohai and the entire structure of modern budo is all about. You never "get it"! You just keep trying to master something that can never truly be mastered and in the process you'll find yourself being very honest with yourself. Right? The only awards, rewards and "achievements" that mean anything are those truly earned and under the standard of your teacher. A real teacher that cares about the art and honoring his predecesors. I hope I never become a "Master" because it's just too much fun training to become a better, more well rounded martial artist under a wonderful teacher.

Please, post comments if interested.

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#209572 - 04/04/06 01:50 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video c [Re: Ryueiryu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Very well put. To be honest, my previous post was not an endorsement.
I still think the clips in question are a misrepresentation of their suppossedly corresponding arts.

The background of the performer was voluntarily sent to me via e-mail and from a technical standpoint, it did not shed any more light than the shady background I was already picturing.
So I chose to end on a positive note and comment on the bravity (as oppossed to brievity) of his attempt to explain where he's coming from.

basically, I don't buy it - but he wrote with the tone of an intelligent and polite person. simple as that.

I think the point has been made, and with your appreciated post it pretty much solidifies it. (although we don't know who you are, we may have a mutual friend <grin>).

the rest is left up to the author of the video's conscience. Unfortunately, it's a loosing battle relying on people to do the right things when money is involved.... and everyone wants to be Soke.

I've seen the gradual commercialization and creation of mainstream Ryueiryu over the recent years...I suspect it has nothing to do with your practice, but still must be disheartening to see people use the same name (although most that teach under it's name, dont know the difference between 'Ryueiryu' and 'Ryuei Ryu').

Then again, as our friend always says ...Caveat Emptor

-Ed

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#209573 - 04/04/06 09:17 AM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video c [Re: Ryueiryu]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ryueiryu,

I thank you for your extremely informative post. I believe your observations about the current spread of ryuei-ryu is consistent with other modern trends.

What little I understand (and the longer I'm around the less I know) is arts like Yammani ryu and the Hakutsuru studies often offered have similar situations. It can make those outside of those traditions work to undestand which instructors are within the older traditions.

Because as I see it, most of the older traditions were kept private and to a large amount may still be so, with newer public versions meeting different needs.

I understand peoples desire to search and learn. Nothing wrong with that, but after a point in time, the issue has to move on to whether one is spending the time with the right instructor.

And the really interesting thing about instructors is whether they can develop the student to really retain their art as time passes. Thats a far different thing than just teaching.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#209574 - 11/06/07 11:34 PM Re: Ohan, paiku and pachu kata (ryuei-ryu) video c [Re: Victor Smith]
truth Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 25
There are relatively few schools of the Ryuei Ryu outside of Japan. Currently two groups that teach Ryuei Ryu in North America. One group, the Okinawa Ryuhokai, led by Tomohiro Shinjo of San Diego, California (an Okinawan that claims to have been taught while as enrolled as a middle school student for a few years in Okinawa) teaches a very popular sport based version of the art, modified for competitive situations by Tsuguo Sakumoto, a former student of Kenko Nakaima. The other group, led by Grant Campbell of New York City (practitioner of oriental medicine and a former international champion of both Kata and full contact Kumite), the Ryuei Ryu Karate Kobudo Association is a private organization that more closely maintains the original teachings of the Nakaima family.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ry%C5%ABei-ry%C5%AB

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