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#206301 - 11/19/05 11:17 AM Karate Katas.
White Lotus Offline

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
About the Karate katas.

You all guys knew that the japanese changed them?
They changed most of the techniques inside them and
some positions, because when they teached them to others, they didn't want their secrets to be revealed,
and this is why i feel stupid to do them, since their real meaning has been changed..
I just don't like doing them when i know that it's not the real one.

Of course some original ones are known, but they are from some karatekas that has studied in Okinawa, but most of katas have been changed.

Argh. This didn't make any sense, did it? No? Thought so.
And excuse the bad english.

( I am not saying that Katas aren't good, just changed from the original form )
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.

#206302 - 11/20/05 01:12 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: White Lotus]
Mark Hill Offline

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Enpi was thrice changed.

Kuan Yin Yang Po--->



Each time it changed, some advanced applications were lost.

However, if you study kata for applicable realistic bunkai, it can still work.

I think Victor Smith has a story on how the bunkai of the two older versions has been reverse engineered into the latest version by some schools.

I have three or four good applications, and a whole kata's bunkai againts a sai or kali stick. (Something I did for my Nidan-Ho grading).

#206303 - 11/20/05 04:01 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: White Lotus]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
(Don't worry about your English. It's fine)

Poor excuse for not liking kata. You don't need an excuse. Do what you prefer, it's not wrong or bad.

But just because something was changed doesn't make it bad or ineffective. There have also been other bunkai in the kata that Okinawans didn't know/use. They weren't the formost experts. Karate evolves whether you like it or not.

If you want to learn the kata as close to original as possible, I think it's an admirable goal. If you wish to disregard bunkai that are totally silly, I admire that. But your excuse sounds just immature.

BTW: All the MA you listed in your bio are not original.


#206304 - 11/20/05 04:19 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: Mark Hill]
Mark Hill Offline

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia

Enpi was thrice changed.

Kuan Yin Yang Po--->



Erm, that would be twice!

#206305 - 11/20/05 09:11 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: Mark Hill]
WuXing Offline

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Kuan Yin Yang Po? I would love to see that, or have the differences explained. If the actual Chinese origin of the kata is known, what style is is from?

#206306 - 11/20/05 07:32 PM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: WuXing]
Mark Hill Offline

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Half tiger and crane ( I think).

Today it is practiced by Won Hop Loong Chuan whom I am not associated with.

#206307 - 11/21/05 04:40 PM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: White Lotus]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: USA

Want to guess if there has been any "drift" in the Chinese kata?

Look at the various lines of Tai-Chi or the the various schools of Hsing I.

Point is that many arts teach from principle--so the fact that some changes may or may not creep in is less important to me than the abilty to convay the principle behind what is being the taught---the "why" rather than the "how."

Course each application should have a actual, good explanation behind it.
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#206308 - 11/23/05 11:53 PM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: White Lotus]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
The Okinawans changed them, too! Not uncommon for one master to teach it differently than his teacher in the early days. And when a kata is done by say 20 different styles - some Japanese, some Korean, some hard, some soft - there will be vast differences. Blocks, stances, strikes not the same, let alone bunkai.

#206309 - 11/24/05 05:40 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: Ironfoot]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
The only constant that exists in karate history has been one of constant change. Each generation did their best to make their art strong.

And people being human always deride all change but their own. With humility I would point out that Funakoshi Ginchin ordered his students not to change kata, of course he had changed or watched over all of them being changed anyway.

Other note, it's more likely he was talking about beginners not advanced students.

As for the premise Japanese versions are less worthy, with good secret stuff missing, Balderdash!

Any one anyplace who makes such a claim knows absolutely nothing about kata. The Japanese versions are just different and as a result have differenet application potential. That's all.

That and of course many systems don't explore kata except as exercise. And that's ok too, different perceptions.

I spent 10 years training with a great Indonesian Shotokan stylist with incredible layers of application 'bunkai' in his art. Perhaps it's not the same as other Shotokan, but it works.

There are no short cut answers. Styles or kata versions are what anyone makes of them.

The rest is 'yak', deriding others and proclaiming oneself the only true arbriter of 'right'.

victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#206310 - 11/24/05 07:35 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: Victor Smith]
Mark Hill Offline

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Victor: I still stand by my statement that advanced applications werre not passed on.

That doesn't stop the research to continue, or from you going to the source....and those who have successfully built up a self defence system aroud kata...just like Master Sustrino!
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

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