FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 37 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
charlie 2
simonajones111 1
GojuRyuboy13 1
Zombie Zero 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#206301 - 11/19/05 11:17 AM Karate Katas.
White Lotus Offline
Member

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
About the Karate katas.

You all guys knew that the japanese changed them?
They changed most of the techniques inside them and
some positions, because when they teached them to others, they didn't want their secrets to be revealed,
and this is why i feel stupid to do them, since their real meaning has been changed..
I just don't like doing them when i know that it's not the real one.

Of course some original ones are known, but they are from some karatekas that has studied in Okinawa, but most of katas have been changed.

Argh. This didn't make any sense, did it? No? Thought so.
And excuse the bad english.

( I am not saying that Katas aren't good, just changed from the original form )
_________________________
We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.

Top
#206302 - 11/20/05 01:12 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: White Lotus]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Enpi was thrice changed.

Kuan Yin Yang Po--->

Wanshu---->

Enpi.

Each time it changed, some advanced applications were lost.

However, if you study kata for applicable realistic bunkai, it can still work.

I think Victor Smith has a story on how the bunkai of the two older versions has been reverse engineered into the latest version by some schools.

I have three or four good applications, and a whole kata's bunkai againts a sai or kali stick. (Something I did for my Nidan-Ho grading).

Top
#206303 - 11/20/05 04:01 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: White Lotus]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
(Don't worry about your English. It's fine)

Poor excuse for not liking kata. You don't need an excuse. Do what you prefer, it's not wrong or bad.

But just because something was changed doesn't make it bad or ineffective. There have also been other bunkai in the kata that Okinawans didn't know/use. They weren't the formost experts. Karate evolves whether you like it or not.

If you want to learn the kata as close to original as possible, I think it's an admirable goal. If you wish to disregard bunkai that are totally silly, I admire that. But your excuse sounds just immature.

BTW: All the MA you listed in your bio are not original.

owari

Top
#206304 - 11/20/05 04:19 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: Mark Hill]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Enpi was thrice changed.

Kuan Yin Yang Po--->

Wanshu---->

Enpi




Erm, that would be twice!

Top
#206305 - 11/20/05 09:11 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: Mark Hill]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Kuan Yin Yang Po? I would love to see that, or have the differences explained. If the actual Chinese origin of the kata is known, what style is is from?

Top
#206306 - 11/20/05 07:32 PM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: WuXing]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Half tiger and crane ( I think).

Today it is practiced by Won Hop Loong Chuan www.wonhoploongchuan.com/ whom I am not associated with.

Top
#206307 - 11/21/05 04:40 PM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: White Lotus]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

Want to guess if there has been any "drift" in the Chinese kata?

Look at the various lines of Tai-Chi or the the various schools of Hsing I.

Point is that many arts teach from principle--so the fact that some changes may or may not creep in is less important to me than the abilty to convay the principle behind what is being the taught---the "why" rather than the "how."

Course each application should have a actual, good explanation behind it.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#206308 - 11/23/05 11:53 PM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: White Lotus]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
The Okinawans changed them, too! Not uncommon for one master to teach it differently than his teacher in the early days. And when a kata is done by say 20 different styles - some Japanese, some Korean, some hard, some soft - there will be vast differences. Blocks, stances, strikes not the same, let alone bunkai.
_________________________

Top
#206309 - 11/24/05 05:40 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: Ironfoot]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
The only constant that exists in karate history has been one of constant change. Each generation did their best to make their art strong.

And people being human always deride all change but their own. With humility I would point out that Funakoshi Ginchin ordered his students not to change kata, of course he had changed or watched over all of them being changed anyway.

Other note, it's more likely he was talking about beginners not advanced students.

As for the premise Japanese versions are less worthy, with good secret stuff missing, Balderdash!

Any one anyplace who makes such a claim knows absolutely nothing about kata. The Japanese versions are just different and as a result have differenet application potential. That's all.

That and of course many systems don't explore kata except as exercise. And that's ok too, different perceptions.

I spent 10 years training with a great Indonesian Shotokan stylist with incredible layers of application 'bunkai' in his art. Perhaps it's not the same as other Shotokan, but it works.

There are no short cut answers. Styles or kata versions are what anyone makes of them.

The rest is 'yak', deriding others and proclaiming oneself the only true arbriter of 'right'.

Pleasantly,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#206310 - 11/24/05 07:35 AM Re: Karate Katas. [Re: Victor Smith]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Victor: I still stand by my statement that advanced applications werre not passed on.

That doesn't stop the research to continue, or from you going to the source....and those who have successfully built up a self defence system aroud kata...just like Master Sustrino!
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga