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#205539 - 03/29/06 08:59 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: amerkarate]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502

I have a Black Belt in TKD, Currently Own a Kenpo School.

I hate to derail, but I have to back up Dedicated, ranger, etc even though they don't need it from me. However, you have a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and opened a Kenpo school? Goes to show that anyone can open a school, like dedicated pointed out...So, back to your original question, who would you trust? Not someone with a black belt in TKD and running a kenpo school.
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

#205540 - 03/30/06 06:13 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: JasonM]
Ivanhoe Offline

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 22
Loc: N.Z.
What would you say if the guy teaching krav had a bb in tkd as well? Someone trained in tkd obviously holds kenpo in high regard. I certainly hope he has studied kenpo to bb level as well.

Thanks BrianS I agree with you.
No greater thing can a man do than to lay down his life for a friend.

#205541 - 03/30/06 12:21 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Ivanhoe]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Nothing, as long as the person was certified in KM. That is certifited to teach krav. Some people do have more than one black belt and I understand this. But the persons initial post said he holds a bb in TKD and owns a kenpo school. That seemed odd, and left it for interpretation and assumption. Like, does he have bb in kenpo? I would hope so if he owns a kenpo school.

#205542 - 03/30/06 02:58 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: JasonM]
PSYOPS Offline

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
There are many Krav Maga Instructors who have additional BB in various forms and several with TKD BB's. Practicing MA is different from practicing a "self defense"system. This is what traditional martial artists fail to grasp. I too have a background in TKD. However the nature of the training is completely different from Krav. Simple concepts should be able to be conveyed with ease and certain amount of speed.

My students do not need to stand in a horse stance for months and perform kata in order to be able to defend themselves on the street. This does not devalue the forms and tradition of classic styles, it merely distinguishes self defense from martial arts. Is Krav the best "system" in the world. No! Only a fool makes such arrogant remarks.

This is an age old argument. Traditional martial artists are always trying to prove that their respective styles are still relevant and current. This is ridiculous because traditional ma serves as the foundation for everything that follows and yes this includes Krav Maga! Krav Maga above all is about an attitude. We Krav practitioners and instructors are not trying to place our system in front of traditional MA.

We are different. Our training style is completely different from traditional MA. Our goal as instructors is not to create martial artists. We are giving people tools to defend themselves, now!

#205543 - 03/31/06 03:11 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: PSYOPS]
SEAL Offline

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 139
I have taken Okinawa Kenpo Karate for many years and I also did some TKD. Here's what I've noticed at KM schools in my area (NY-metro): Many of the students have had prior MA history. Of course, some are newbies. It is my belief that a system like KM is a fantastic method for those who have had many years of MA training under their belt (preferrably, black lol); it makes a great compliment to one's repertorie. KM may not be as "pretty" as Kenpo, but it doesn't claim to be. KM is all about efficiency and function. It is not difficult to see the JKD influence.

I recall a story where Bruce Lee was grappling with a western amateur or greco-roman wrestler. Having been inexperienced in this art, Lee was eventually pinned. The victor asked Bruce Lee, since the wrestler had pinned him and thus no ability for escape, how would Lee get out of this move on the street (as opposed to a wrestling tourney)? Bruce replied he would bite the man. It's all about function over form, not vice-versa -- keep what is useful and discard the rest.

This is what I preached to myself after I stopped taking Kenpo. I learned some valuable self-defense techniques, sure. And I apologize in advance for those of you who will be offended now, but Katas, board breaking, and memorizing - in sequential order, no less - strikes and blocks will NOT help you in a real fight. I want to learn self-defense, not how to dance. I realize I may come off brass saying that and that's fair but it's how I feel. Even light sparring is not much help because of its intricate linear boundaries. A typical street fight doesn't last very long. Nonetheless, you have precious seconds (as well as milliseconds after the first strike) to decide what attack or block to impose on your foe. You won't have time to ponder if strike #12 or strike #14 is more appropriate! So, what will you do? Like many schools I've visited, you'll do exactly what you did in sparring. In other words, you'll anticipate, or predict, his movements and attacks, instead of reacting on-the-fly - which is what they teach is KM, as I understand - coming up with new techniques or variations of what you learned as the fight progresses. That's not to say traditional arts don't prepare students for the dynamic, unpredictable nature of street fighting. In my experience, the percentage of schools that do teach self-defense right (out of the ones I've visited and trained at) is not high at all.

And I hear many of you loud and clear, that it's more about the student than the art. But let's face it, for most of us experienced MAs, if you were given the choice of learning some ultimate fighting method and a traditional ryu, the former having a somewhat adequate instruction and the latter possessing superior teaching methodology, most would study at the traditional school.

That is the difference maker: Sometimes the teaching ability of the school is more important than the art itself (I would say most times). Kenpo IS an effective self-defense art, but the problem is a combination of who instructs it and how well they really prepare you for a street fight (the same can be said for KM, of course).

Here's the last thing about KM. I think some of may not fully understand the capacity of this hybrid fighting method. Some of you may have not even known that it is considered acceptable to flee the battle if it calls for it, according to the teachings of KM. It was not designed for long, drawn-out confrontations. This does not mean it's inferior or superb; it's just the reality of the situation. Having said that, I find it difficult to believe that some of you admit a Kenpo fighter (trying to stay on topic here) can take out a KM fighter becasue the person with a Kenpo background is well rounded. This is a generalization and generalizations have no place in a real street fight. The fact of the matter is it comes down to many variables, such as weapons (if any), environment, clothing, weight, height, endurance, skill, fighting experience, martial arts experience and prior arts taken, quickness, agility, and luck, just to name a few.

I remember a few years ago Ken Shamrock taught the US Marines some self-defense techniques, in the same vein as KM (he still teaches periodically, I think twice a year). [Also, potential Navy Seals are recommended to take ninpo and Krav Maga, which suggests the Seals may use KM.] Like the Marine martial art system, KM is designed to end the fight as quickly as possible -- that's why it's called self-defense. On the battle field, you have seconds, not minutes, to take out your foes. That's why the techniques in KM seem so simple. Utlimately, no more than two or three moves, consisting of taking your foe off his footing and disposing of him somehow, all within 2 or 3 seconds. That's essentially the system of Krav Maga.

Basically, I'd take total cost (50 miles is not exactly 'round-the-corner) and the quality of teaching as of utmost importance for this decision (not all of us are made of money, right?).

Edited by SEAL (03/31/06 03:20 AM)

#205544 - 04/03/06 04:46 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: SEAL]
Kreg Offline

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 1
Well said, Seal.

#205545 - 04/04/06 02:09 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Kreg]
GuitarNinja Offline

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 182
I agree with seal, I am 5"7 I have never weighed anymore than 160lbs , and that was when I was injured and laying in bed for months. My normal weight when training regularly is about 130-140... my background a bit, im 23 ... ive been taking various forms of TMA and western fighting (boxing & wrestling) since age 6 ... my main MA being TKD ... my study of TMA is more along the lines of looking for the real function of moves ... not the standard "block block punch" etc.. Over the past few years on my travels, ive stopped in to watch and participate in some of the KM classes, these guys are intense to the max, but what I noticed, was any applied techniques during free sparring .. were practically identical to properly applied "karate/TKD" techniques, the only difference being, the TMA guys have cleaner more flowing technique, this is not to say KM guys dont, because most of the higher ranks were indistinguishable(sp?) from the TMA guys, but the TMA had more of it. The reason behind this imo, is more time is spent on basics and kata..... I believe eventually, all these new "mma and Self Defense" systems will have there own kata and whatnot. Anyhow, back to my point.... the other day, I was in a tangle with a untrained (school wrestler) 6"2 240# teenager ( 19 ) the other night, I had a total of about 8 drinks the entire evening, I was a little gone to the wind, ... but this guy was at least half way drunk too... but he tore right through me the first engagement, we ened up on the ground in seconds... hecouldnt hit me for nothing, all sorts of objects being in the way.. it was easy to get back to my feet. Once on the feet, he tried to tackle me AGAIN, this time, i dropped and sprawaled a bit, becauas of the little area we were in, I was in more of a deep deep horse stance, I used a distored form of the traditional karate "low block" (right hand pushed his head down while my left pulled up on his bicep/shoulder area this is the first movement of the block,) he went down with so much ease I was amazed, anyhow finishing the block I hammer fisted in the nose and was ready to palm heel but he shelled up, we shook hands immediately afterwards, we were friends where things got out of hand.... My point being, my TMA helped me 1000 times more in this real life situation than my boxing or wrestling, if I opted to wrestle lke he wanted to, instead of getting immediately up.. I would of been killed, but because of my many hours spent in horse stance doing the low block, that was my first reaction the second time.... thing is, why didnt I do it the first time ?? EGO, PRIDE, FEAR something everyone has , I was scared to rely on my TMA because of alll the MMA boom ive been second guessing, I ad a big ego and thought hah... I can handle him , hes not THAT big... lol, and being in front of people, I was too proud too lose, I didnt wanna be known to my friends as the "bullshido karate kid" ... my faith in TMA has been brought back since that night, him being so big and me so small, and drunk, my TMA training actually worked when I let all inhibitions go.

All sorts of variables came to light in that situation, 1) size of the people/strength/speed , 2) alcohol, 3) the size of the area 4) objects in the area ...

IMO though, any highly trained fighter would have been able to deal with this situation REGARDLESS of style he trained in. Only question is, what style can deal with all situations if the movements are studied to there full potential ? ANY STYLE, because the body only moves in so many different ways

When you really start to think about it, back before TV and Radio, Internet and Computers, there was NOTHING.... people who did "karate" did just that, what makes people think just because were more advanced now that what they did hundreds of years ago couldnt possibly be better ?? Back then, you had to deal more with physical confrontations, ... matsumura was the Kings bodyguard.... he passed down all sorts of katas, they must have been pretty damn useless eh ?? For the bodyguard of a king, in times like those, to study kata religously like he did, that should speak volumes to all TMAist.

Sorry for this rant, btw I hope I offended no one, I have no bias really, just dont believe in reinventing the wheel.. especially when we can fly now. lol I love all MA , boxing, wrestling, BJJ, JJ, judo, aikido, karate, tkd, wing chun, etc.. etc... I eat it all right up, so please, if I did offend you, im sorry.
Mastery is in the practice itself.

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