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#205499 - 11/16/05 10:08 PM Krav Maga or Kenpo?
sqtrainer Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 11
Hi all,
I'm new here and have had a life long interest in MA's but never pursued it. I really want to start now. I just moved to an area that has Kenpo about 3 miles from my house, and a Krav Maga school about 50 mins. away.

My main goals are these:
self defense
conditioning
discipline

I have been researching KM for a while and it seems great, but a buddy of mine says Kenpo is almost as good for self defense and it teaches more traditional discipline. It's a tough choice, given the distances to the schools.
Can you guys share your thoughts? Any advice would be helpful.

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#205500 - 11/16/05 10:16 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: sqtrainer]
Lori Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 66
I'm new as well, so I don't have advice to share. I just wanted to say Welcome!

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#205501 - 11/16/05 10:22 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Lori]
sqtrainer Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 11
Thanks! Reading your post has definitely scored points for KM. It sounds like fun. I am in really bad shape though. It would probably kill me.

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#205502 - 11/16/05 11:07 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: sqtrainer]
clammy joe Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 112
I've taken Karate and TKD in the past, just to orange belt or so, and I've been doing Krav for the past 11 months and I can say with all confidence that Krav is much more conditioning oriented and much more practical concerning real life fighting and self defense situations. Krav is what I wished I could find when I was doing traditional martial arts but I just hadn't heard of it. For me, Krav has it all over Karate and TKD.

I don't know much about Kenpo but I believe it's a form of Karate or developed from Karate.

Most schools will let you take a free lesson, why don't you try out both schools?

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#205503 - 11/17/05 08:54 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: clammy joe]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Clammy Joe hit it right on the button. The best way is to check out both schools, and see which one suits you better.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#205504 - 11/17/05 11:15 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: MattJ]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
kempo (or kenpo) is karate, but it is a much more american version IMO. there is more emphasis on self defense and the learning curve is a bit more "progressive". i took a little bit of it a few years ago and thought it was fun but questioned the effectiveness - mainly because i don't think kata is the best thing to concentrate on if you're in for SD. with krav, there is no kata and in a few months you will have all the tools you need to save your a$$ in a bar fight. krav's weak point is that it isn't very effective against others who practice MA and the weapon defenses, even though incredibly comprehensive, are very risky in reality. many students i have met seem to develop false senses of confidence and it worries me that if they are ever jacked, they will get themselves killed trying to fight off an attack that could be averted by giving up the wallet.
krav is much more martial than art, so maybe the best thing to do would be to cross train. after all, like JKD or MMA krav was originally intended to be personalized and expanded upon.
good luck!

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#205505 - 11/17/05 01:36 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
clammy joe Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 112
ShikataGaNai,

Why do you claim Krav isn't effective against traditional MAs? My instructor is a 4th degree BB in TKD and even he says Krav is easily superior to traditional martial arts when it comes to street fighting and self defense.

Personally I know I'd have a hard time if someone used Kung-Fu or some such thing against me because I'm not used to seeing those techniques and would be very confused but that is due to a lack of experience, not a flaw in Krav.

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#205506 - 11/17/05 02:16 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: clammy joe]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
when i think "street fighting", i think self defense, i.e. protecting yourself from attackers who have not trained in MA. yes, krav is way more effective for SD than TKD or any other TMA's that put more emphasis on form than function (not that theres' ANYTHING wrong with that), but if you were attacked by someone trained in judo, jj, kick/boxing or as you mentioned kung fu - you might not have what you need. i've used krav techniques in my kali class and learned this the hard way. krav is about getting the job done and i love it for that and find it incredibly effective. but if someone who's got some technique comes at me, i'm not going to rely on it - i would be more likely to utilize feints(boxing), trapping (KF, kali) and everything i've learned from MMA. in a standup fight, mind tricks are essential and the directness of krav doesn't always cut the mustard.

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#205507 - 11/17/05 02:17 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: clammy joe]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
In my opinion I think krav serves the short term purpose and karate serves the long term purpose. In other words a person(generally) who studies krav will be better quicker than a karateka,but the karateka will in time surpass this. Just my opinion folks.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#205508 - 11/17/05 02:42 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: BrianS]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
that makes a lot of sense. that's why i study many arts with many learning curves and mix it up as much as possible. the drawback is that i'll never be too good at anything!

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#205509 - 11/17/05 03:11 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: sqtrainer]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Alright, as mentioned above, KM has a very short learning curve, due to being bare bone techniques designed for military H2H. You learn quickly, and you can use it quickly. Kenpo is indeed related to Karate, being of Japanese/Okinawan influence. Depending on the particular style of Kenpo, (and whether you hit a mcdojo or not), the learning curve for practical application will range from about 1 year, to about 3, for the average person.

Now, the main factor beyond those above, is the drive. 50 mins. means at least 30 miles of driving if you have some urban/dense suburban area to drive through. To drive an hour one way 2-5 times a week can really hamper your desire to study, however the kenpo might not be right for you. Give both a try, and decide which you like best. If it's KM, decide if the drive is worth it. If you like the Kenpo better, then the decision is easy.

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#205510 - 11/17/05 04:15 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Tolyn1007 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 113
Loc: SF Bay Area
First, just wanted to say welcome to the forums. I think KM is good for building up a decent set of skills over a relatively short amount of time in comparison to TMAs. While I've been taking KM and teaching for .... well, a few years any way, I went the route a few here recommend which was to build on those skills with a more traditional MA. Unless the school is crappy, I don't think you'd lose out either way.

Keep us up to date.
_________________________
~Tolyn~ www.tolynsworld.com

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#205511 - 12/22/05 02:27 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: BrianS]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:

In my opinion I think krav serves the short term purpose and karate serves the long term purpose. In other words a person(generally) who studies krav will be better quicker than a karateka,but the karateka will in time surpass this. Just my opinion folks.




I am not sure i totally agree with that. Alot of the traditional MAs involve alot of unrealistic stances, chambering kicks,punches from the hip, trying to block kicks with their hands, etc. I don't care howe many years they have studied that, it isnt going to make those techniques any more effective. I have met TKD black belts who didnt know how to throw nor defend against a simple hook puch or uppercut.

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#205512 - 12/22/05 04:13 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

kempo (or kenpo) is karate, but it is a much more american version IMO. there is more emphasis on self defense and the learning curve is a bit more "progressive". i took a little bit of it a few years ago and thought it was fun but questioned the effectiveness - mainly because i don't think kata is the best thing to concentrate on if you're in for SD. with krav, there is no kata and in a few months you will have all the tools you need to save your a$$ in a bar fight. krav's weak point is that it isn't very effective against others who practice MA and the weapon defenses, even though incredibly comprehensive, are very risky in reality. many students i have met seem to develop false senses of confidence and it worries me that if they are ever jacked, they will get themselves killed trying to fight off an attack that could be averted by giving up the wallet.
krav is much more martial than art, so maybe the best thing to do would be to cross train. after all, like JKD or MMA krav was originally intended to be personalized and expanded upon.
good luck!





I agree with most of this, although it depends on the martial artist - I find that a lot of mediocre martial artists are trained to expect attacks that fit their art, and krav can just overwhelm them. but that comes from not knowing a lot of the good ones, I guess.....

and I agree about the weapon traning and false confidence


do not overlook the issue of the drive. when you are begining, a 50 minute drive every time can be difficult to take.

good luck

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#205513 - 12/23/05 03:45 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: sqtrainer]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hi guys, I agree with Shikataganai and BrianS.
I have studied traditional tkd, modern sports tkd, and Kosho Ryu Kempo. I have seen demonstrations on KM and I am very impressed with its practical self defense application, however like brian said in short term use it is very useful and there is nothing wrong with this, but with a style like kenpo/kempo you become a well rounded martial artist and you learn to become innovative. Putting new combinations together more easily becuase you have a much stronger knowledge of technique and economy of motion and so forth. So i say if you just wanted a crash course in effective techniques for real life self defense take KM but if you want to study self defense as a whole and benefit from kenpo's/kempo other aspects such as focus, concentration, deeper knowledge of technique, economy of motion ect. American kenpo which is basically the one geared specifically more for self defense. Meaning you have some aspects of traditional training, but not so much emphasis on forms more towards self defense.

"Do or do not...there is no try" - Yoda
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#205514 - 12/23/05 09:25 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: TeK9]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
You folks are reading my mind...

After I advance a couple of belt levels in Krav, I am considering adding a local Japanese Kempo school... I am looking to become more rounded and flowing..
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#205515 - 12/26/05 10:17 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: sqtrainer]
whitedragon777 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 4
my friend i started with shito ryo then krav maga and now kung fu , tai chi and kempo i also read all the time and practice wirh my friend in the back yard and train when ever i can to tell you the truth you need a strong base in MA and nothing like traditional then go try kempo and km then decide

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#205516 - 12/27/05 12:31 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: whitedragon777]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
What kind of Kung Fu did your friend cross train in? I have been particularly interested in Wing Chun lately, as I sparred a WC practitioner and was awed by how he could use my own strikes and body against me. Has your friend found the same thing when applying KM or Kempo against a TMAist?

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#205517 - 01/06/06 12:19 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
RavenG4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 34
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Quote:

What kind of Kung Fu did your friend cross train in? I have been particularly interested in Wing Chun lately, as I sparred a WC practitioner and was awed by how he could use my own strikes and body against me. Has your friend found the same thing when applying KM or Kempo against a TMAist?




I'm actually starting to Learn some JFJKD. But I also want to learn KM. THe best is to take what works from each and use it in the situation you are in. If you are just fighting some joe in a bar that doesn't have an MA skills KM might work best or a hybrid of KM and some other MA. If they do know some MA you might use a hybrid of what you've learned to handle them.
_________________________
"Evil is Powerless if the good are unafraid."- Ronald Reagan

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#205518 - 01/24/06 02:30 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: sqtrainer]
dhatcher Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 7
Loc: San Jose, CA
Ah-ha! Something I'm slightly qualified to speak on. I've studied Chinese and American Kenpo as well as Choy Li Fut Kung Fu. Kenpo is actually more derived from Kung Fu than traditional Japanese Karate (although it has similarities to both, it is closer to Kung Fu).

I loved Kenpo when I was in it. However, there were parts I did not care for (such as kata) because I did not see a really beneficial "need" for it so to speak.

The one thing I can say I took away from Kenpo is that I learned a lot about body and joint manipulation. Understanding ways to bend and twist or break things. What points of the body to hit etc.

It was not highly conditioning. Although I was in good shape, its focus was more technique than anything.

Krav on the other hand (been a student going on 4 months now) is geared much more towards conditioning and improving cardiovascular stamina. Reason being, that is part of Krav mentality. The point that once you successfully defend you should be on the attack constantly. In order to attain that requirement you need good cardiovascular health.

Krav is a blend of martial arts in reality. To tell you the truth they have techniques they've copied right out of the Kenpo manuals (how to get out of a headlock, rear choke just to name a couple). However, it also blends in a little more groundwork, a lot more boxing style movements (staying on your toes and shifting forward, backward, left and right; although Kenpo has those too they emphasize a step-drag movement where the boxing style emphasizes a push from the rear foot if going forward, front foot if going backward and so-on). There seems to be a lot of controversy over the weapon defenses, however, I have this one piece of information to offer on that. It is necessary to keep in mind the relevant track history of techniques from each art. In other words, Krav was developed for the Israeli military and is used to this day. The techniques have been tested and used time and again (not that other TMA's haven't, but I'm not sure what regularity they have been used and how successful they've been).

All in all I would say that even going to one or two classes at each place still is not going to help you make up your mind. You need to spend a good month doing each in order to really see what you like and what inspires you.

As much as I loved Kenpo, I don't think I will ever go back. For the fact that Krav, to me, is much more sensible in a self defense manner and besides it incorporates techniques from other TMA's already.

I love the conditioning I get. I love the laid back atmosphere of the classes (TMA's tend to be a little stricter on ceremony and calling instructors by titles) and I love the blend of what I'm learning, all from one system.

Get more specific on what you want (write down a list and then try to get a little more detailed on what you mean) and then see if you can't at least attend 2 week courses at each place.
_________________________
-Dustin

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#205519 - 03/13/06 01:31 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: BrianS]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25

First of all to say that a "system" is better or worse than any other system is ridiculous. I know TKD guys who are extremely good street fighters and it has more to do with their attitude than anything else. As a former Latosa Escrima student I will tell you that Krav techniques will not work against any stick fighter who is waiting for you to attack them, it is simply better to remove yourself from the situation.

As far as being attacked by a judo or BJJ student goes this is a hot button for me because I live in Las Vegaas and we have a million BJJ or MMA schools preaching ground and pound. In a street fight there are many other elements that do not exist in the "octagon" by the way all of the male groupies of the UFC make me absolutely sick to my stomach.Every A-hole who has taken a judo class now believes that he is Matt Hughes, but I digress.

The whole idea of taking someone to the ground on the street and remaining on the ground with them is laughable. The guys friends are going to stomp your head into the pavement. Worse than that the guy you took to the ground will pull his knife or gun and you will have bigger problems. Additionally you will not have the "comfort" of rolling around on the padded mat which is a huge factor and lastly most people forget that in the ring eye gouges and kicks to the knees and groin and throat are not allowed and therefore a false sense of security is given to the "grappler".

I was in a bar in Vegas and I was wearing one of my Krav Maga shirts and a drunken BJJ "black belt" began harrasing me. I tried to ignore him and even attempted to leave. He stepped in front of me and then attempted to "shoot in" I fell against the bar and while he was attempting a "text book take down" I grabbed a bottle of MGD and busted his head open.

Let's just say that I went home that night and he went to visit one of the fine medical facilities in town. My response to grappling questions is simple:Do whatever you have to do to get off the ground!

I am sorry for the long response but this topic really gets me going.


Edited by PSYOPS (03/13/06 01:32 AM)

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#205520 - 03/13/06 05:56 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: dhatcher]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I agree with you, kenpo is a great system for self defense, especially against multiple attackers. I myself was not happy practicing forms, I found them to be useless. Kenpo is basically considered a new art and specially Ed pakers, Ralph Castros and Kajukenpo which all the techniques were modified to deal with modern scenerios. You my no longer know how to deal with an horseman but you know what to do if your ever attacked at the bus stop.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#205521 - 03/13/06 06:02 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: PSYOPS]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Relax tough guy, I know how you feel about UFC and ground grapplers and their faith in ground techniques. Although I have very little knowledge in ground techniques, I am very well versed in striking techniques. I am a big believer in vital points. A poke to the eye and a shot to the groin will have any ground and pound wishing he didn't go there.

For the record the latest by Royce Gracie on self defense, he states although Bjj system as shown how a defender who has been taken to the ground is not copletely helpless, they still avoid ground techniques in self defense and admit that it is mostly for sport. Bjj stil teach upright/standing classic jujutsu technques for self defense.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#205522 - 03/13/06 05:58 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: TeK9]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
Really?

That's funny because I have seen videos of Gracie family members as well as some of the "top students" in Brazil purposely starting fights so that they could practice thier techniques for ground and pound. I also witnessed this in Brazil where fighting is not viewed as a serious infraction.

My comments were not directed toward all ground fighters. However in general there is not one valid reason to roll around on the ground with someone in a streetfight!

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#205523 - 03/14/06 01:24 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: PSYOPS]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Call me crazy,but isn't this thread about Krav or Kenpo?
Not a "I don't do groundfighting so I bash it" thread?
I'm just sayin'.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#205524 - 03/14/06 05:59 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: BrianS]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
This is a good point for me to remind folks I have very little tollerance for bashing any form, system or method. Debate is a great thing as long as we keep respect firmly in mind.

Comaparison of any two forms or systems is bound to cause some opinions, even some heated opinions...lets just keep it respectful.

And as Brian noted, this is about Kempo and Krav...so let's stay on topic please.

_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#205525 - 03/14/06 02:07 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: sqtrainer]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Since I didn't notice anyone else mention it, I'd also try to decide which instructor/school I liked best. Either of these arts, well taught, will give you several years of challenging, rewarding experience. Personally, I'd try like hell to avoid a two-hour round trip drive to train.

Just saying "kenpo" tells you no more about the flavor of that ryu or school than just saying karate or kungfu. I study Okinawan kenpo, which (as te or kara-te) predates both Japanese karate and American kenpo. The dojo I attend is a jutsu rather than a do school. But that is a ryu and instructor related fact, rather than a kenpo fact. You need to go see to know.

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#205526 - 03/15/06 12:16 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Joss]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I study Okinawan kenpo, which (as te or kara-te) predates both Japanese karate and American kenpo.




Older does not equal better.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#205527 - 03/15/06 08:22 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: BrianS]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Substitute "newer" for "older" and your statement is still true. But then my point was simply to establish the historical context.

Your's?

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#205528 - 03/15/06 09:03 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Joss]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
My point was to reinterate your implication.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#205529 - 03/26/06 06:26 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: BrianS]
amerkarate Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 1
I was just reading all the post about Krav Maga and Kenpo.
I have a Black Belt in TKD, Currently Own a Kenpo School. I have also have taken Krav Maga. There is a big difference between all them. Kenpo you have many self Defense techniques in the system for any kind of an attack. There are so many principles in Kenpo that you find in Krav Maga.
Krav Maga is for people who just want quick self defense program, Nothing wrong with that. I found a good bit of there material is from Kenpo just with the principles. So if you want to learn an art and self defense go with Kenpo it is the Ultimate in Self Defense.
If you want a quick self defense program go with Kav Maga.
Plus all this also has a lot to do with the instructor.
Speaking of instructors I believe Krav Maga instructors get trained in like a few weeks,
Kenpo instructors take many years. So who would u trust?

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#205530 - 03/27/06 09:31 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: amerkarate]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
Have you ever seen a Krav Maga Instructor Certification Test? The other thing is anybody can open a Martial Arts School, you don't need special licenses or certifications. So who would you trust? Someone who has been through seven days of hell, and been certified by the top instructors in the Country, or the guy that decided to just open a school? Unless you have gone through the training and the testing, think before you decided to post.
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#205531 - 03/27/06 10:26 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Dedicated1]
stvb7 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
I think that a lot of people misunderstand the certification process with Krav. It is not that instructors go to LA for a week to learn how to teach Krav. People who want to teach spend a long period of time (months/years) learning the skills at their home gym. When they are ready, they go to LA for a grueling week to PROVE that they know what they are doing (which is a VERY long test in my opinion!).
I'm not sure how other arts do it, but I always pictured someone being promoted at their home gym, and then teaching there. With Krav, that is not the case. I prefer Krav's methods because it means that all instructors have been certified as having achieved a certain level of proficiency, and it is the same for all instructors across the country.

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#205532 - 03/27/06 05:10 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: stvb7]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
I agree, I wasn't trying to go off topic but the one post rubbed me the wrong way. The whole " Who would you trust?" thing. Thanks for backing me up.
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If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#205533 - 03/27/06 07:26 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Dedicated1]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Anyone who would make the comment that a Krav Instructor has "only a few hours", has never seen a Krav Instructors Exam, nor known the hours..even years some of these folks put in before they test.

I have your back on this one too...I was there.
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#205534 - 03/27/06 08:21 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: amerkarate]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Yep. I'm with you guys,but teaching takes a whole lot more than fighting skill or knowledge.

Quote:

Krav Maga is for people who just want quick self defense program,




I used to be under this impression until I saw people like RangerG who have been "dedicated" for years. Evidentally it's not a quick fix,it just leaves out the art aspect.

Quote:

Kenpo it is the Ultimate in Self Defense.




Oh boy.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#205535 - 03/28/06 07:30 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: BrianS]
Ivanhoe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 22
Loc: N.Z.
Try both of them. See what style best suits you at the stage you are at. We all have our opinions on what is best.
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No greater thing can a man do than to lay down his life for a friend.

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#205536 - 03/28/06 03:59 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Ivanhoe]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
Wow!

A person off the street will never be allowed to simply walk in to Krav L.A. and take an instructor certification course. All three phases are brutal. That's right ladies and gentlemen there are three phases all a week long each with a six to eight hour brutal exam at the end of the week. Understand this people a licensed Krav Maga instructor earned that rank! In the Krav system a fully certified instructor out ranks Belt levels. He/she is certified to teach concepts and aspects of Krav. A black belt who is not a certified instructor can't teach the system!

I don't know how many other Krav Instructors on this site have completed all three phases, but I have and I am telling you that it is not easy.

One last thing,

The fact that Kenpo takes "years to study" only illustrates the primary difference between Krav Maga and most systems. Most people don't have the time to "dedicate years" to studying. They don't have time to snatch the pebble from the masters palm. This is why Krav Maga was created. No Gi's, no meditating, no contemplating the nonthingness of being. NO! Eliminate the threat, ATTACK THE SOURCE!

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#205537 - 03/29/06 05:45 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: PSYOPS]
Ivanhoe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 22
Loc: N.Z.
sqtrainer has a life long interest in MA. Perhaps he will prefer the longer journey. I'm sure Krav is highly effective. I like the idea of having to produce the goods. Not every black belt can fight or teach well as the abilities of a black belt are variable. Did Bruce Lee say that a person who did a year of wrestling and a year of western boxing would beat a MA who had trained for 10 years in one style? I know that was a generalisation as he was making a point. Can anyone refresh my memory on this?
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No greater thing can a man do than to lay down his life for a friend.

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#205538 - 03/29/06 06:05 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Ivanhoe]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I believe Bruce did say that,but it was way generalized too(as you said). It all depends on the bla bla bla...

I'm sure you can have a lifelong interest in Krav too..?

Not everyone wants the fast approach to self defense,some martial artist don't train for self defense at all.

I enjoy doing kata,I don't know many knife,gun,or grenade disarms,I like to wear my gi,and I enjoy the art/history of goju. If any of these interest you Krav might not be right for you.

I've seen Krav demo's and the principles are there that are in many other ma.

In my particular school we'll spend a good 3-4 months showing you the basics(stances,strikes,kicks,etc).I think Krav gets right to the point. However,I firmly believe that a good foundation should be poured before getting into the 'nitty gritty',it makes for better technique in the long run.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#205539 - 03/29/06 08:59 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: amerkarate]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Quote:


I have a Black Belt in TKD, Currently Own a Kenpo School.




I hate to derail, but I have to back up Dedicated, ranger, etc even though they don't need it from me. However, you have a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and opened a Kenpo school? Goes to show that anyone can open a school, like dedicated pointed out...So, back to your original question, who would you trust? Not someone with a black belt in TKD and running a kenpo school.
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#205540 - 03/30/06 06:13 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: JasonM]
Ivanhoe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 22
Loc: N.Z.
What would you say if the guy teaching krav had a bb in tkd as well? Someone trained in tkd obviously holds kenpo in high regard. I certainly hope he has studied kenpo to bb level as well.

Thanks BrianS I agree with you.
_________________________
No greater thing can a man do than to lay down his life for a friend.

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#205541 - 03/30/06 12:21 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Ivanhoe]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Nothing, as long as the person was certified in KM. That is certifited to teach krav. Some people do have more than one black belt and I understand this. But the persons initial post said he holds a bb in TKD and owns a kenpo school. That seemed odd, and left it for interpretation and assumption. Like, does he have bb in kenpo? I would hope so if he owns a kenpo school.

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#205542 - 03/30/06 02:58 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: JasonM]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
There are many Krav Maga Instructors who have additional BB in various forms and several with TKD BB's. Practicing MA is different from practicing a "self defense"system. This is what traditional martial artists fail to grasp. I too have a background in TKD. However the nature of the training is completely different from Krav. Simple concepts should be able to be conveyed with ease and certain amount of speed.

My students do not need to stand in a horse stance for months and perform kata in order to be able to defend themselves on the street. This does not devalue the forms and tradition of classic styles, it merely distinguishes self defense from martial arts. Is Krav the best "system" in the world. No! Only a fool makes such arrogant remarks.

This is an age old argument. Traditional martial artists are always trying to prove that their respective styles are still relevant and current. This is ridiculous because traditional ma serves as the foundation for everything that follows and yes this includes Krav Maga! Krav Maga above all is about an attitude. We Krav practitioners and instructors are not trying to place our system in front of traditional MA.

We are different. Our training style is completely different from traditional MA. Our goal as instructors is not to create martial artists. We are giving people tools to defend themselves, now!

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#205543 - 03/31/06 03:11 AM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: PSYOPS]
SEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 139
I have taken Okinawa Kenpo Karate for many years and I also did some TKD. Here's what I've noticed at KM schools in my area (NY-metro): Many of the students have had prior MA history. Of course, some are newbies. It is my belief that a system like KM is a fantastic method for those who have had many years of MA training under their belt (preferrably, black lol); it makes a great compliment to one's repertorie. KM may not be as "pretty" as Kenpo, but it doesn't claim to be. KM is all about efficiency and function. It is not difficult to see the JKD influence.

I recall a story where Bruce Lee was grappling with a western amateur or greco-roman wrestler. Having been inexperienced in this art, Lee was eventually pinned. The victor asked Bruce Lee, since the wrestler had pinned him and thus no ability for escape, how would Lee get out of this move on the street (as opposed to a wrestling tourney)? Bruce replied he would bite the man. It's all about function over form, not vice-versa -- keep what is useful and discard the rest.

This is what I preached to myself after I stopped taking Kenpo. I learned some valuable self-defense techniques, sure. And I apologize in advance for those of you who will be offended now, but Katas, board breaking, and memorizing - in sequential order, no less - strikes and blocks will NOT help you in a real fight. I want to learn self-defense, not how to dance. I realize I may come off brass saying that and that's fair but it's how I feel. Even light sparring is not much help because of its intricate linear boundaries. A typical street fight doesn't last very long. Nonetheless, you have precious seconds (as well as milliseconds after the first strike) to decide what attack or block to impose on your foe. You won't have time to ponder if strike #12 or strike #14 is more appropriate! So, what will you do? Like many schools I've visited, you'll do exactly what you did in sparring. In other words, you'll anticipate, or predict, his movements and attacks, instead of reacting on-the-fly - which is what they teach is KM, as I understand - coming up with new techniques or variations of what you learned as the fight progresses. That's not to say traditional arts don't prepare students for the dynamic, unpredictable nature of street fighting. In my experience, the percentage of schools that do teach self-defense right (out of the ones I've visited and trained at) is not high at all.

And I hear many of you loud and clear, that it's more about the student than the art. But let's face it, for most of us experienced MAs, if you were given the choice of learning some ultimate fighting method and a traditional ryu, the former having a somewhat adequate instruction and the latter possessing superior teaching methodology, most would study at the traditional school.

That is the difference maker: Sometimes the teaching ability of the school is more important than the art itself (I would say most times). Kenpo IS an effective self-defense art, but the problem is a combination of who instructs it and how well they really prepare you for a street fight (the same can be said for KM, of course).

Here's the last thing about KM. I think some of may not fully understand the capacity of this hybrid fighting method. Some of you may have not even known that it is considered acceptable to flee the battle if it calls for it, according to the teachings of KM. It was not designed for long, drawn-out confrontations. This does not mean it's inferior or superb; it's just the reality of the situation. Having said that, I find it difficult to believe that some of you admit a Kenpo fighter (trying to stay on topic here) can take out a KM fighter becasue the person with a Kenpo background is well rounded. This is a generalization and generalizations have no place in a real street fight. The fact of the matter is it comes down to many variables, such as weapons (if any), environment, clothing, weight, height, endurance, skill, fighting experience, martial arts experience and prior arts taken, quickness, agility, and luck, just to name a few.

I remember a few years ago Ken Shamrock taught the US Marines some self-defense techniques, in the same vein as KM (he still teaches periodically, I think twice a year). [Also, potential Navy Seals are recommended to take ninpo and Krav Maga, which suggests the Seals may use KM.] Like the Marine martial art system, KM is designed to end the fight as quickly as possible -- that's why it's called self-defense. On the battle field, you have seconds, not minutes, to take out your foes. That's why the techniques in KM seem so simple. Utlimately, no more than two or three moves, consisting of taking your foe off his footing and disposing of him somehow, all within 2 or 3 seconds. That's essentially the system of Krav Maga.

Basically, I'd take total cost (50 miles is not exactly 'round-the-corner) and the quality of teaching as of utmost importance for this decision (not all of us are made of money, right?).


Edited by SEAL (03/31/06 03:20 AM)

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#205544 - 04/03/06 04:46 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: SEAL]
Kreg Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 1
Well said, Seal.

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#205545 - 04/04/06 02:09 PM Re: Krav Maga or Kenpo? [Re: Kreg]
GuitarNinja Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 182
I agree with seal, I am 5"7 I have never weighed anymore than 160lbs , and that was when I was injured and laying in bed for months. My normal weight when training regularly is about 130-140... my background a bit, im 23 ... ive been taking various forms of TMA and western fighting (boxing & wrestling) since age 6 ... my main MA being TKD ... my study of TMA is more along the lines of looking for the real function of moves ... not the standard "block block punch" etc.. Over the past few years on my travels, ive stopped in to watch and participate in some of the KM classes, these guys are intense to the max, but what I noticed, was any applied techniques during free sparring .. were practically identical to properly applied "karate/TKD" techniques, the only difference being, the TMA guys have cleaner more flowing technique, this is not to say KM guys dont, because most of the higher ranks were indistinguishable(sp?) from the TMA guys, but the TMA had more of it. The reason behind this imo, is more time is spent on basics and kata..... I believe eventually, all these new "mma and Self Defense" systems will have there own kata and whatnot. Anyhow, back to my point.... the other day, I was in a tangle with a untrained (school wrestler) 6"2 240# teenager ( 19 ) the other night, I had a total of about 8 drinks the entire evening, I was a little gone to the wind, ... but this guy was at least half way drunk too... but he tore right through me the first engagement, we ened up on the ground in seconds... hecouldnt hit me for nothing, all sorts of objects being in the way.. it was easy to get back to my feet. Once on the feet, he tried to tackle me AGAIN, this time, i dropped and sprawaled a bit, becauas of the little area we were in, I was in more of a deep deep horse stance, I used a distored form of the traditional karate "low block" (right hand pushed his head down while my left pulled up on his bicep/shoulder area this is the first movement of the block,) he went down with so much ease I was amazed, anyhow finishing the block I hammer fisted in the nose and was ready to palm heel but he shelled up, we shook hands immediately afterwards, we were friends where things got out of hand.... My point being, my TMA helped me 1000 times more in this real life situation than my boxing or wrestling, if I opted to wrestle lke he wanted to, instead of getting immediately up.. I would of been killed, but because of my many hours spent in horse stance doing the low block, that was my first reaction the second time.... thing is, why didnt I do it the first time ?? EGO, PRIDE, FEAR something everyone has , I was scared to rely on my TMA because of alll the MMA boom ive been second guessing, I ad a big ego and thought hah... I can handle him , hes not THAT big... lol, and being in front of people, I was too proud too lose, I didnt wanna be known to my friends as the "bullshido karate kid" ... my faith in TMA has been brought back since that night, him being so big and me so small, and drunk, my TMA training actually worked when I let all inhibitions go.

All sorts of variables came to light in that situation, 1) size of the people/strength/speed , 2) alcohol, 3) the size of the area 4) objects in the area ...

IMO though, any highly trained fighter would have been able to deal with this situation REGARDLESS of style he trained in. Only question is, what style can deal with all situations if the movements are studied to there full potential ? ANY STYLE, because the body only moves in so many different ways

When you really start to think about it, back before TV and Radio, Internet and Computers, there was NOTHING.... people who did "karate" did just that, what makes people think just because were more advanced now that what they did hundreds of years ago couldnt possibly be better ?? Back then, you had to deal more with physical confrontations, ... matsumura was the Kings bodyguard.... he passed down all sorts of katas, they must have been pretty damn useless eh ?? For the bodyguard of a king, in times like those, to study kata religously like he did, that should speak volumes to all TMAist.

Sorry for this rant, btw I hope I offended no one, I have no bias really, just dont believe in reinventing the wheel.. especially when we can fly now. lol I love all MA , boxing, wrestling, BJJ, JJ, judo, aikido, karate, tkd, wing chun, etc.. etc... I eat it all right up, so please, if I did offend you, im sorry.
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