FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 28 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
jwwmantis 2
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Chum Kiu's double Tan Sau motion
by futsaowingchun
12/22/14 10:08 AM
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Chum Kiu's double Tan Sau motion
by futsaowingchun
12/22/14 10:08 AM
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35592 Topics
432527 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 ... 11 12 >
Topic Options
#204214 - 11/13/05 03:12 PM Secret techniques in kata
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Do kata contain secret techniques, not visible in the execution of the kata ?

In Saifa the 2 time double punch right after mae-geri is changed from the original technique, kaiko-ken (crabshell fist). Is this a secret teaching? The angel in wich kaiko-ken is delivered onto the ST18 is significant to obtain optimum effect (burning sensation below nipples and a sharp penetrating pain, opponent tends to 'collaps' inward losing power in schoulder, chest and arms).

I was told that all kata have these secret techniques, however I was only thaught a few in that way.

Any of you have knowledge of these 'secret' techniques ??

Top
#204215 - 11/13/05 04:32 PM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: CVV]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
cant say,




Its a secret
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#204216 - 11/13/05 10:13 PM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: CVV]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Not secret techniques. A better phrase would be hidden.

They are there to find if you know how/where to look, and are willing to study hard.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Top
#204217 - 11/14/05 12:43 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: BuDoc]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Hidden in plain sight.

Top
#204218 - 11/14/05 09:43 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: oldman]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Agreed, hidden in plain sight. These aren't secret techniques as in "This is a blow that will rearrange a persons organs" they are advanced Bunkai...

Would you teach a white belt a neck break? Arm break? if they've studied for less than a month, no control, no real understanding of their own bodies...
But, three years later they are more advanced... You revisit a Kata and say. "You've mastered this Kata, now let me show you what is really inside this Kata."

And you show the person who has been doing this Kata for three years, the movements between the movements. Not only will it make their forms stronger, it will give them a deeper understanding of the martial art.

Note : There are also little tidbit for people to know, almost all Neko Ashi Dachi (Cat Footed Stances) are implied kicks. Thus, the Bunkai sometimes will reflect that, sometimes not. The implied kick can be a knee press, a mae geri... It can be many different foot forms. Some are even locks (Especially downward blocks, the upward rising hand being the pulling hands, the downward falling hand being the pressing hand and the leg/heel being a fulcrum.)
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

Top
#204219 - 11/14/05 05:52 PM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: phoenixsflame]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
In view of history (pre-20th century). Trademark, effective techniques would be hidden, even to students in order not to give them away to easy, in view of possible confrontation. As such they are secret. Even in recent history there are examples of masters that left out certain things from kata and not all can be explained as evolution in kata learning (the 3 year example from phoenixflame).
Eg Norisato of Ruei Ryu only made his family style 'public' around 1970. In the 2 video of Shinpo Matayoshi for Tsunami productions, he leaves out pieces in the kata he demonstrates. His family karate style, Kingai Ryu, is only known to a few people.
I see 2 evolutions wich led to these secrets :
- as said before, to reveal certain techniques only to most trusted students (pre20th century secracy)
- in view of the evolution after 20th century, teaching in public schools, the national intrest (Japan) in the 1930 with standardization of execution and de-barbaricification (???? = transition to sport), the international intrest from 1960's onward, certain 'dangerous' applications are no longer focused and referred to as 'old way' (koryu).

Specifically towards Goju Ryu, Miyagi sensei standardized the execution of the kata sometimes leaving out or altering techniques in the execution of the kata, having applications in a different way than shown in the kata.
These are referred to sometimes as secret techniques in kata
In Goju-ryu Sesan kata there is a mae-geri towards the end, before delivering a gyaku-zuki with tora guchi sliding into neko ashi dachi. This kick was explained to me as an upward heel kick into the inner side of the hip joint (LIV 11, trying to damage the hip joint).

Are there simular teachings in other styles, or is this unique to Goju Ryu to explain it this way.Or am I talking total nonsense ??

As for neko ashi dachi, I was told it was also used as starting position for throwing sand to the attacker, first digging the food in the sand.

Top
#204220 - 11/15/05 08:54 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: CVV]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

As for neko ashi dachi, I was told it was also used as starting position for throwing sand to the attacker, first digging the food in the sand.





Interesting Bunkai Good to know!

There are definately more techniques in the Kata like the one you spoke of. I think one of the reasons that the Kata were encoded in such a way, is that once a student reaches a certain level, they can begin to see the advanced Bunkai/applications that are latent in the forms that aren't taught. I think there may be Bunkai that was placed in Kata adjacent to each other that has yet to be really discovered (A continuation of Bunkai from one Kata to another, like the Heian's.)
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

Top
#204221 - 11/25/05 11:31 PM Secret techniques in kata [Re: CVV]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello CVV:

I'm afraid ENGLISH is a language I speak fairly well. If you're able to better translate I'll be sure to understand to what you refer... (ie Be careful utilizing too many Japanese terms.... some might not truly know them).

Jeff

Top
#204222 - 11/25/05 11:50 PM Secret techniques in kata [Re: CVV]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello CVV:

If you or I spent serious time using a particular tool, we would hopefully become very good with it through our persistance, correct? The first time, the second time, not so good. By the 15th year you understand all kinds of things about it, which you did not (in a body sense) initally. In that sense "secret" things are never secret.... you can uncover anything if you examine and explore it long enough.

As for real secrets, others have described previously above. Do you want the children to understand all kinds of deadly and dangerous explainations for their movements? They are not demonstrating the body mechanics even close to correctly, you want to give them even more dangerous material for which they are not ready emotionally/psychologically?!

Adults are no different in that regard. Emotionally they are not as likely to ignore the dangers. Yet they have not done the fundamental stuff and absorbed that level of body information yet. They are doing middle school work, you want to hand them the college level information immediately?

Secret stuff, might well be secret for another good reason. Consider what happens if the secret stuff is subtle... and requires microscopic details to be understood. It takes a blessed long time to have a good subtle level of well understood material. You get the basic idea quickly, but the nuances, the small and tiny things takes far more time and exploration. If that is the definition of "secret" do you just share that on the first day....? Not likely.

You start with very simple, very basic and over a long time, you point out smaller and smaller details they are ready and able to explore. Before then you'd drive a normal person mad with the minute level of things they might be required to "get". Its all good but you start with something that's easy to understand and progress from that point...

And btw, no your explaination of Seisan is not "alien"...
not remotely.

Jeff

Top
#204223 - 11/26/05 01:19 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
CVV: While Matayoshi may not share the secrets of his family, Kingai Ryu came from China, as did Pan Gai Noon Ryu.

Do you mean what the family teaches is secret, or all Kingai Ryu is secret?
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

Top
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 ... 11 12 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga