FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 21 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT, sagat
22914 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
AndyLA 2
ergees 2
kolslaw 1
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
Recent Posts
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
09/09/14 05:55 PM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
09/07/14 07:01 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
09/02/14 06:26 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22914 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432491 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 7 of 12 < 1 2 ... 5 6 7 8 9 11 12 >
Topic Options
#204274 - 12/01/05 02:49 PM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I got it, you R taking it to a higher plane, you can't understand Physic until you know how to multiple/divide/ subtract& add after the basic and algerbra/Trig... then you can understand the secrets of Physic/Kata.

I got it Ed but you an Enstine maybe too upper level for some to follow, I guess that falls under the privelege info act too, doesn't it. Blood, Sweat and Tears no way around it, to get it or see it. Is that close to what you're saying (I'm reaching for my oxygen mask).
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#204275 - 12/01/05 08:43 PM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Neko456]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
No one believes in Okuden or even kamiwaza? Just curious who trains people in this manner?
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#204276 - 12/01/05 09:18 PM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Neko: nice. I always get a kick out of people trying to insult people's intelligence while giving a dazzeling display of horrible grammer and 6th grade spelling errors.

I'm not claiming any privaledged knowledge. Try and paint me as an elitest, and you'll just make yourself look like you have an inferiority complex... sorry I'm not biting.

back to topic:
Lets agree on something that is truely a secret as it relates to kata (something no one could possible know with 100% certainty).
How about knowing what the masters of 100 years ago DIDN'T know? thats a bona-fide secret isn't it? I have never read anywhere of any master explaining what he didn't know about kata....except maybe mentioning that they weren't 100% sure of a particular kata's origin.

Have you ever read of a past sensei saying: "I'm not sure about the application of that particular technique." Probably not, because if they truely didnt know, they figured something out on their own and made it work...problem solved...and a 'secret' gained.

thats all we are really talking about here...they are referred to as 'secret applications' but they are the hard work of a previous master that was either passed on by teaching it or figured out/changed/modified/improved by his student...

Thats the best case...now what if the person creating the secret got it wrong but still passed it along as a secret? How willing would you be to still call it a secret?

In that sense, the secret is in knowing what is worth keeping and passing to the next generation. When you pick and choose who to teach this to it ceases to be a secret and becomes 'privaledged information'.

Top
#204277 - 12/01/05 09:34 PM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

No one believes in Okuden or even kamiwaza? Just curious who trains people in this manner?



Yes! perfect. those are the differences I'm talking about.
Okuden is the privaledged teachings.
Kamiwaza is the fruitless holy grail search that leads to obsession. lit: 'divine technique'

When people think of secrets, it sometimes sounds like they are talking about both Okuden and Kamiwaza...I was trying to separate the two out.

Top
#204278 - 12/02/05 10:09 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Mr. Morris its always nice to know when you are being insulted, I was not insulting you nor was I under the impression that this was a grammar competition. I thought it was casual communication on the subject of secrets in Kata.

Now how I got you wrong is that you don't think there are any and I took it that we were in agreement that in Kata/Bunkias every variation or interpetation can open a new way of thinking or moving. No matter how small or slight a new way of moving or delievery can be a secret technique if its new to you. Now you thought I was being snide with the comparison of basic math progress to the realitivy formula and basic concept of kata to advance, I wasn't.

We got off on the wrong track thinking in an effort to pat you on the back, you thought I had aimed lower. I didn't I misunderstood your intention until I read your comment on the Old Masters not knowing the full meaning of somethings.

You obviously are pretty deep but you don't seem to understand there should be no apology for not knowing everything. A Master is a title given alot of times they don't want this title because of the great expectation that they should know everything. I learn something new while training in almost every training session I attend, wheather its my foundation art or a new art no matter how small. In this way I am a perpetual student, I admitt I never will know everything about everything. Once I've done that, then like you I can judge or say what other people see and learn is not true to them.

We only disagree in our findings, but in my opinon thats ok because its our right to do that. We can disagree and not be in conflict. There still no insult invovled, we just see the subject matter differently.

For future reference I personally think its useless to fight with words or insults over difference of opinions over the internet or in person. I won't waste my time with it, its an innate right.

Paul Hart thats a deep concept I'd bet few train with that in mind here and now. Divine techniques or the other Special privaledged teachings. In the US and back then too, more money/status makes you a privalege student.

I am at work amusing myself with these responce I don't have time to grammar or spell check.


Edited by Neko456 (12/02/05 10:30 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#204279 - 12/02/05 10:37 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think you are just covering your butt. (I also added a little ' ' wink in there so I could always just say I was only kidding.) and I was, like you, only kidding too

"...there should be no apology for not knowing everything."
I didn't know that...but I don't need to appologize for it, do I?

lets get back on topic...before we start to sound married.
.
.
Spare change anyone? Help out a brother with a secret lost thread?

Top
#204280 - 12/02/05 10:52 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
There is an explanation behind Kamiwaza. I fully believe, no, I know Okuden exists. There are things which are not taught and others that are. Can you figure some of them out yourself? sure, it's possible. But the Okuden in a martial art is there to give you a short cut to developing the skills the Masters had. Sometimes they may not be the skills themselves but in what Kokoro you do them with. The Kamiwaza on the other hand are not any one technique, it is all techniques. Morihei Ueshiba found his way to this level of practice. To understand the concept we must understand the term. Kami, which means spiritual, is a way of saying that the person has went beyond the physical while he does his techniques. All techniques can be performed this way. Most of us may reach a level where we can perform one or two. The guy who has the incredible punch, or Hee Il Cho's spinning back kick. Some can train so hard and reach that were all techniques are at a level above physical. I am never going to get there by typeing so I will go train now.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#204281 - 12/02/05 11:11 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ed its your innate right to think as you like. Notice I didn't put a wink in the last responce I was serious. I don't need to cover anything like you I have innate rights also.

Secrets in Kata through all my 30 years of training no matter what art I've studied most effective techniques are in the short set of forms/Kata that I've learned in the various systems. The secret is in the bunkia (our school term) or explaination (and how deep is the secret) of these application (what are we actually doing here). Sometimes its explain that its a punch/technique, other time its a punch to certain location, then to what angle, and then at a prescribed time and to what degree of injury. And maybe how to reverse the injury or heal, It becomes subject matter to study. Some systems (like Kali) actual say these are the fighting applications with no modification, I disagree here fighting is not a constant that can be pre determined. I'm not asking for any to agree, again I'm inacting my innate right. If thats ok with you Ed.

It can be just traditional dance or it can be a verison of an application, deep application or basic. This is where the secret are, how deep.


Edited by Neko456 (12/02/05 11:18 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#204282 - 12/02/05 11:42 AM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I know what the problem is...I don't know any secrets so I can't possibly understand the conversation. still, I try...

Okuden I believe is absolutely true, real, happening, transmitted, preserved and sometimes referred to as secrets but I think is more accurate to call privaledged information.

kamiwaza, I don't believe can be taught. it's an experience that may or may not happen in martial art careers.

Let me ask this...what do you think people are selling to the public when they blatently advertise that they teach 'secret techniques of the lost ancient arts'?

see the baggage with all those terms? I was just trying to separating out the baggage. silly me.

Top
#204283 - 12/02/05 12:32 PM Re: Secret techniques in kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ed - Okuden I believe is absolutely true, real, happening, transmitted, preserved and sometimes referred to as secrets but I think is more accurate to call privaledged information.

I've seen several examples of this some of my Instructors (not that all gave me privalege info) and people from out of state that bring in training thats new, unheard of or not understood and sometimes not wanted, like family systems & Chi/merdian training.

Ed - kamiwaza, I don't believe can be taught. it's an experience that may or may not happen in martial art careers.

I agree it not taught but personally developed. But I think its experience more times then you think. Most people think this of their Instructors, is it true, big ? There are still some amazing technicains out here, maybe not at the level of Hee Lll Cho's tight heavy bag splitting JSBK but close. I personally don't like the term divine/image of supernatutal, mastering of a ... is my perference.

Ed - Let me ask this...what do you think people are selling to the public when they blatently advertise that they teach 'secret techniques of the lost ancient arts'?

Some people actually believe in their cause, and do teach efefctive unfamilar arts Filipino/Silat/Kuntoa/African. Or as they call them combat arts. Is it sell pitch, maybe. But if its new concepts and effective, why not learn it if it can enhance what you are doing. Some people are just hype 30 minute listening or watching their techniques a trained person can deter that.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
Page 7 of 12 < 1 2 ... 5 6 7 8 9 11 12 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga