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#203936 - 02/14/06 10:25 PM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: Uccello]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Watch this video
http://www.break.com/index/weakknive.html

Pay close attention to just how hard the guy in the video is tapping the sword on the table. You'll probably notice that it's not all that hard.

This is stainless for you folks. Yes a small number of smiths have been able to work this stuff effectively, but if you're buying from a no-name website and not a custom smithy, you aren't getting one.

No you should not sharpen stainless swords. They are meant to hang on the wall period. If you use them to hack up bushes and trees, don't be suprised when it breaks and cuts you or a loved one very very badly.

You should at least have read enough in this thread to realize that Tsafa's testing methods are controversial at best. Go down to Walmart, drop $30 on a machete.


Edited by Charles Mahan (02/14/06 10:27 PM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#203937 - 02/15/06 03:50 PM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: Uccello]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
Quote:

Your mention of the Authorities: Are there laws against wandering around in the bush with a sword? I guess I'll have to look into the local laws...




Almost anywhere in North America, there are laws against carrying a sword (or any knife over a certain length) in public. There are specific exceptions, generally of the form: "A restricted knife may be carried to, from, and during any event or activity for which that type of blade is required or desirable". So it is reasonable to carry a bowie knife while deer hunting. However, the more exotic the weapon, the closer the authorities will look at it. A guy with a machete or a 6" skinner on his belt will get a "how's the hunting?" from the offcer. However, a guy with a katana will get a "what are you doing with that son?" response.

Laws in Europe are even more strict.
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#203938 - 02/15/06 05:20 PM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: Charles Mahan]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
I saw that funny video a while ago. Further proves how esential testing is.

Generaly I agree that stainless steel is a bad choice for any sword and any such sword is for display only. But when a manufacturer says it is a "Full Tang", it implies that some thought was put into it to make it functional, other wise why the extra effort and expense. I am the last person that would ever trust what any manufacturer says about the durability of their own swords. I only trust what I test or has been tested independetly.

Understand that I do not care one way or the other if this sword breaks or does not break. I just want to know what it will do.

I did some further testing. I banged the flat of the Full Tang Katana against the flat of my carbon steel lionheart to see what would happen. I have struck the two together about 300 times today. Here is two short vids showing how I struck them together (340 kb each):

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa2/katana27.MPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa2/katana28.MPG

Until the Katana breaks, the fact remains that it has not broken. And even if it did break tomorrow, so far I have stuck it about 10,000 times against the tire, that is not a bad buy for $70. Try to understand this is not my favorit sword by any means. I have a much better Katana from Generation 2 with a 60/40 hardness and handles much better. That one cost $230 by comparison.


Edited by tsafa (02/15/06 05:28 PM)

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#203939 - 02/15/06 06:45 PM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: tsafa]
awin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/08/06
Posts: 18
Loc: New Mexico
You should consider that the manufacturer may have made it a "full tang" so that people would "think" that the manufacturer put some thought into the weapon being functional. Marketing the right message to the right people can go a long way...

You should also consider that if stainless steel were a good material to make weapons out of then weapons (not hangers) would actually be made out of it.

The Japanese navy made swords out of stainless steel in WW2, but only the outer skin was stainless so that the iron core could absorb shock and prevent catastophic failure.

I really think the attitude you are taking here is seriously ignorant. By your arguments, you are right because you havent had a serious problem occur. Trust me, you will run into trouble sooner or later.

thanks,
Allen

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#203940 - 02/15/06 09:58 PM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: tsafa]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:


http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa2/katana27.MPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa2/katana28.MPG





What precisely do you think that proves? You aren't striking with anywhere near the force that is involved in a real cut.

Go check out some of the cutting videos on http://www.bugei.com to see what I mean about the difference in the amount of force James Williams exerts, and the compare that to what you are doing in those videos.

Is this indicative of the kinds of "cuts" you've been doing against the tire?

On another note, I wonder if Tsafa is potentially opening himself up to litigation. If someone takes his advice, buys this sword, and the sword breaks and someone gets badly injured, could Tsafa be held liable in court? I'm not stating this, I'm really not sure how the law plays out on this.


Edited by Charles Mahan (02/15/06 10:01 PM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#203941 - 02/15/06 11:00 PM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: Charles Mahan]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
Quote:

Quote:


http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa2/katana27.MPG
http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa2/katana28.MPG





What precisely do you think that proves? You aren't striking with anywhere near the force that is involved in a real cut.

Go check out some of the cutting videos on http://www.bugei.com to see what I mean about the difference in the amount of force James Williams exerts, and the compare that to what you are doing in those videos.

Is this indicative of the kinds of "cuts" you've been doing against the tire?






There is video on the site showing how I hit tires.
here is a direct link. I tried to use a slicing cut in this one. Normaly I take my time and my cuts are more neat, but I wanted to get as many cuts in as I could in 15 seconds.

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/UN%20Katana.MPG

The blade on blade video I posted is the best I could do holding each sword with one hand. It still is a lot harder then what the earlier video from the home shopping network showed, where the sword broke.

I went to the site you posted. I only see a guy cutting some straw mats. I must not be looking in the right place. Could you post a direct link. I would be interested in trying other tests too.

I don't see why anyone would be oppose to testing. We should have a more open mind. Why not find out what the limits of this Katana is? It is my money. I don't mind breaking it just to find out how far it will go. I fail to see why people would not be curious. Don't you stop to look at a two cars in an accident and examin the damage? I think it is natural to want to know the limit. What will be the breaking point? The handle? The blade? Will those brass rings come apart at some point? I want to know and make the information public.

If you search my website you will find three other swords that I have proudly broken. If this katana has any weakness, I will find it.


Edited by tsafa (02/15/06 11:37 PM)
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An unused weapon is a useless weapon...

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#203942 - 02/16/06 12:25 AM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: tsafa]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

There is video on the site showing how I hit tires.
here is a direct link. I tried to use a slicing cut in this one. Normaly I take my time and my cuts are more neat, but I wanted to get as many cuts in as I could in 15 seconds.

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/UN%20Katana.MPG






I'm sorry but even in that video you are not even coming close to approaching the kind of power that is normally found in an effective cut.


Quote:


The blade on blade video I posted is the best I could do holding each sword with one hand. It still is a lot harder then what the earlier video from the home shopping network showed, where the sword broke.





Oh I have no doubt you were doing the best you could with one hand, but that doesn't make it a realistic stress test.

Quote:


I went to the site you posted. I only see a guy cutting some straw mats. I must not be looking in the right place. Could you post a direct link. I would be interested in trying other tests too.





What I wanted you to see was the amount of power that goes into his cuts. You aren't even coming close in my estimation.


Quote:


I don't see why anyone would be oppose to testing.





I don't oppose testing in general. Just the way you are going about it. Two reasons stick out in my mind. The first has to do with people I know of who have been seriously maimed when a blade broke doing the kind of stuff you are doing. When blades break, occasionally they come back at the user. You aren't taking any real steps to protect yourself in the videos I've seen. Are you even wearing safety goggles? The second reason why I'm opposed to the kind of testing you are doing, is that it doesn't produce useful results for the people who need to have them. You aren't testing the swords in a way that is representative of the way martial artists use them.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#203943 - 02/16/06 12:54 AM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: Charles Mahan]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
I think you have to give some allowance for the quality of the video. I hit hard. Most people on other sites say my test go beyond the normal stress that would be placed on a sword. You are the first to say that my strikes fall short. The strikes into the tire and wood polls are hard enough to incompacitate someone. It does not take much force to cut skin and break bone even with a dull sword. The pressure is highly concentrated on the edge.

The flat on flat strikes I did resemble a parry with the flat. The flat strikes where hard enough to cause the blades to bend over ech other and spring back. The katana did more bending because the other blade was much thicker and heavier. This springing caused the katana the vibrate.

Regarding the usefulness of my test. Well, I'm still looking for a breaking point, so far this is a tough sucker. Also it is not ment to be an end onto itself. I invite other people to do some testing and post results for comparison. If you come up with some better methods to test durability, perhaps I will work them in. I have a very open mind.
_________________________
An unused weapon is a useless weapon...

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#203944 - 02/16/06 02:28 AM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: tsafa]
Uccello Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 4
I think some clarification must be made about for whom the tests conducted by Tsafa are for; it is unlikely any of the 'purists' of this forum will be impressed with his methodology or his choice in weapons(s), while those of us that are untrained in the fighting arts and are looking to purchase one the the tested swords (for whatever reason) may find some useful information about the products we're about to use.

First, it is unlikely anyone could hold Tsafa responsible for experiences related to conclusions one may come to by viewing his data. Manufactures, retailers and instructors cannot be held accountable for the results in using weapons; the owner/opperator is ultimately responsible for its (mis)use.

Many of the objections being raised about the testing methods to determine the limits of this sword could also be made when testing any sword - even real swords. Any item will have its breaking point. I get the sense Tsafa is looking to find the breaking point - although I also have concern for his safety; an injury of any kind would not be worth the lessons learned and information gained. One must admit that safety tests are conducted for everything sold on the market and someone's got to do those tests, but I trust they're doing them SAFELY.

On the particualrs of this sword: This is the only source I know of for a person to get any sense of what kind of use this sword can withstand. I will also share my findings in this forum, so that any future prospective buyers can be better informed about their prospective purchase. Some information is better than no information. What if every sword sold on the open market had some kind of durability test? People could determine whether they were getting a beautiful wall-hanging that is extremely dangerous to swing around (due to a half-tanged-one-loose-pinned-handle) because of some testing - whether scientific or not. For the 'purists', tests would verify the ligitimacy of a maker's/retailer's claim about the sword.

Before the organized and scientifc testing done by the VOLVO Dummies, there were real-world dummies willing to crash their cars to determine their limits in order for all of us to make more informed decisions. SAFETY IS KEY.

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#203945 - 02/16/06 09:30 AM Re: Full Tang Katana [Re: Uccello]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
There's a reason this is the only forum where this kind of testing is reported. It's been rejected on the more academic forums for good reason. This thread would have been closed or removed on SwordForum or E-budo by now. I leave it here because the standards are intentionally lower here. There are high quality forums you can go to if you want to speak with the folks who have a lot of training under their belt. This is one of the few places where a lot of newer folks hang out with some folks who have some training under their belt.

Tsafa the kind of testing you do is akin to taking a baseball bat and testing it's likeliness to break by picking up rocks of about the right size and hitting them with about 75% of the force that a real baseball player would use. You have no training as a baseball player and so cannot swing the bat properly. The rock is nothing like a ball, so even if you swung it properly the results are tainted, and you aren't swinging it with the kind of force that a real baseball player would use. Then you publish your results, and people who don't know any better assume that the results were done by someone who knows what he's talking about. They take your advice. They use it somewhere approaching it's intended target and force, and it breaks. No big deal with a baseball bat, but a broken sword during tameshigiri can come back to bite you.

Whether you can be held legally responsible or not, there is a certain amount of moral responsibility to at least acknowledge the flaws in your testing scheme.

A note on your "parry" testing, that's a parry like you might get in a stage fight maybe. That's nothing like a real one would look. First of all they wouldn't be flat to flat, it would be edge to flat. Second it wouldn't be one handed tapping. It would be one person with a full on, I'm gonna cut you in half stem to stern I really mean it, cuts.

I wish I had an example video of what I'm talking about. It's not easy to describe. It takes new students a long time to figure out how to cut with hips properly engaged, good tenouchi, and a the proper sinking feeling all of which adds to the power of a cut.


One of these days you're gonna find the breaking point of one of your swords. I fear for you when that happens. As was evidenced in the HSN video, they frequently come back on the user. The only reason that guy escaped serious injury is that he wasn't really striking the table all that hard. If he'd been into a full bodied cut....


[edit]Try this video http://www.mounzer.dk/bugei10mb.mov [/edit]


Edited by Charles Mahan (02/16/06 09:47 AM)
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