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#203878 - 11/11/05 05:09 PM Application of Jeet Kune Do
RockHard Huy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 65
I was just wondering how the philosophies of JKD would apply to different martial arts.

Applied to Aikido, how would the practitioner evolve?
What about jujitsu?

I'll let you guys share you opinions before I share mine.
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"It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm." Mike Tyson

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#203879 - 11/11/05 05:40 PM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: RockHard Huy]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
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Quote:

I was just wondering how the philosophies of JKD would apply to different martial arts.

Applied to Aikido, how would the practitioner evolve?




Probably to the point to where he was no longer doing aikido, lol.

But seriously, a LOT would have to change I believe (regarding aikido). I mean you have to add boxing, kicking, clinching and ground fighting. I’m really not a big fan of wristlocks. That’s a HUGE part of aikido. I say, scrap it and use other methods of throwing and close quarter fighting.

Quote:


What about jujitsu?




Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Japanese? If we’re talking BJJ, nothing has to change.


Quote:


I'll let you guys share you opinions before I share mine.




Lets hear it.


-John

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#203880 - 11/11/05 05:47 PM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: RockHard Huy]
MattJ Offline
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I am not sure I understand your question.

JKD principles apply the same way to any other art. JKD is a vehicle for finding and then exceeding your own personal limitations, whether they be physical, technical or emotional.

A given practitioner's evolution would depend on what the specific needs of the person would be.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#203881 - 11/11/05 06:00 PM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
RockHard Huy Offline
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Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 65
I was thinking the same thing regarding Aikido. At the very least, I think the practitioner would adopt some palm strikes and become a close to mid range fighter with heavy emphasis on their hands. They would need to figure out how to balance the idea of intercepting an attack with the idea of being passive. Be passive, deflecting the opponent’s blows until stepping in range to intercept his core with a single strike. Sort of like how you approached my post. Answered the questions, then attacked with "let's hear it". I'm pretty naive

I was thinking Japanese, but really have no idea how JKD would affect it.
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#203882 - 11/11/05 06:19 PM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: RockHard Huy]
JKogas Offline
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If the core principle of JKD is, "discovering the truth in combat" and, knowing that the "truth is different for each individual".....

That would mean that:

You have discovered this "truth" how? By "researching your own experience, absorbing what you found useful and discarding the rest. But how do you know what's useful? By training and sparring it LIVE against a resisting partner/opponent.

Japanese jiu-jitsu practitioners don't have the greatest reputation for doing that.


Just my opinion and experience.


-John

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#203883 - 11/11/05 06:37 PM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
RockHard Huy Offline
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Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 65
right
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#203884 - 11/12/05 06:22 AM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: RockHard Huy]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
I read something one time i'm not sure where maybe on this forum, someone said once before that any martial art that works well in combat will look like boxing or kickboxing, it may not look the exact same and you'd be able to tell the differences between boxing and your combat art but they would still look alike maybe even very much alike. that's because any art that seeks to work well in combat will make it's self simple, precise, and effective. Any art that seeks to be the most effective will put simplicity above all other philosophies. anyway that's my opinion on the matter i could go on and on about almost anything because i'm the conversational type but i'll stop now.

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#203885 - 11/12/05 08:52 AM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: etaks86]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

I read something one time i'm not sure where maybe on this forum, someone said once before that any martial art that works well in combat will look like boxing or kickboxing, it may not look the exact same and you'd be able to tell the differences between boxing and your combat art but they would still look alike maybe even very much alike.




All “alive” arts trained in an alive manner will tend to look the same. (That’s because there truly are no such things as “styles”, but that’s another topic…)

This is in part due to the fact “advanced” moves don’t really exist and are only things that people can pull off during training with compliant partners (for the most part). Simple basics work. They work in training and during the heat of a fight. They work because they’re simple.

Aikido isn’t simple. It is based upon fine motor abilities. Fine motor abilities tend to fall apart during the adrenaline surge.

Quote:


that's because any art that seeks to work well in combat will make it's self simple, precise, and effective. Any art that seeks to be the most effective will put simplicity above all other philosophies.




Simplicity in this case is referring to gross motor movements as opposed to fine motor movements. Brazilian jiu-jitsu tends to be more functional than aikido (for most practitioners) because you’re controlling large joints install of smaller ones (elbow and shoulder as opposed to the wrist and fingers, etc .)

There are exceptions to this general rule. Any technique can “work” given it’s own time and circumstances. Simple basics tend to work more reliably over complex movements. I don’t think ANYONE will argue with that.


-John

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#203886 - 11/13/05 06:08 AM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
Yes i completely agree.

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#203887 - 11/15/05 10:03 AM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: etaks86]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
I'm not sure that's true, that any martial art that works well will look like kickboxing. Boxing and kickboxing don't have any grabs or takedowns, and lots of effective styles use grappling. I wouldn't say grappling looks like boxing. A good style emphasizes efficiency, which isn't exactly the same as simplicity.
Bruce Lee's principles apply to whatever you might study. I apply Jeet Kune Do principles to my own practice, which doesn't include any boxing, jujutsu, or wing chun. There is Okinawan karate, Shaolin five animals, Tai Chi Chuan, Praying Mantis, black tiger, and chin na. I use grappling techniques from chin na, from the five animals' dragon style, and from tai chi chuan. Hand techniques from five animals, karate, and mantis. Legs from mantis and black tiger. Ground techniques of black tiger and chin na. The point is, I use the techniques that are most efficient for me from each style. You drill them in forms and sparring until they are second nature, and the style becomes your own. If you are practicing just one style, then Jeet Kune Do would apply to finding the most efficient way to perform the techniques from that style for yourself. Being honest with yourself. I think really Jeet Kune Do philosophy applies best to cross-training, or at least when you are rather advanced in at least one style, so you have a wide repetoir of techniques and strategies to choose from.

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#203888 - 11/15/05 11:21 AM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: WuXing]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by WuXing -

Quote:

I'm not sure that's true, that any martial art that works well will look like kickboxing. Boxing and kickboxing don't have any grabs or takedowns, and lots of effective styles use grappling. I wouldn't say grappling looks like boxing.




He was referring to stand up arts, obviously.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#203889 - 11/15/05 12:58 PM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
etaks86 wrote - I read something one time i'm not sure where maybe on this forum, someone said once before that any martial art that works well in combat will look like boxing or kickboxing, it may not look the exact same and you'd be able to tell the differences between boxing and your combat art but they would still look alike maybe even very much alike. that's because any art that seeks to work well in combat will make it's self simple, precise, and effective. Any art that seeks to be the most effective will put simplicity above all other philosophies. anyway that's my opinion on the matter i could go on and on about almost anything because i'm the conversational type but i'll stop now.


My reply- I see your point and its a valid one but some arts are dimensional and serveral layers to them, I studing a Hard soft art that not only stresses close/hard fist but open hand/soft (being simple). My point is when I really being threaten I use open hand techniques to vital parts of the body that hampers seeing, breathing or standing, then back to a close fist or kickboxing/silat method or whatever the situation calls for.

These techniques don't look anything like boxing, alot of grabbing pushing and striking. I think your point was to have effective standup along with other ranges, and I agree with that.

I think the exceptance of ranges is one of the best concept that JKD gave to the MA community, most only stressed their range. Gracies BJJ helped to define these ranges mostly highlighted the grappling range along with the others.


Edited by Neko456 (11/15/05 01:01 PM)

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#203890 - 11/15/05 05:53 PM Re: Application of Jeet Kune Do [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
To clarify, I stated that (read closely), "all alive arts, trained / practiced in an alive manner will tend to look the same".

The definition of "alive" in this case is: Having the qualities of timing, motion and energy/resistance.

That is open to interpretation. Here I mean, the quality of aliveness will out of necessity (from the standpoint of the "energy/resistance" parameter), INCLUDE the use of grappling during kickboxing.

If you're NOT allowing the use of grappling during kickboxing training, are you truly training (empty hand) as realistically as possible? I would say no. And I doubt that anyone else would argue that point. I'd say that what you were doing was isolating a specific range. (And that's a good thing to do I might add)

If you're NOT allowing the use of grappling during kickboxing training, are you allowing all forms of energy/resistance during the training? I would say no. Again, you're isolating a specific range. You're limiting the forms of resistance that your training can include (though this is NOT to infer any sort of judgement on your training).

If by "alive" I mean, having real timing, real motion and real energy, then I think you HAVE to be integrating all ranges during training. I might add that by this definition, all three elements (timing, motion and energy) have to be present in order for training to be considered alive.

This is NOT to say that kickboxing cannot be "isolated" and trained alive - it CAN, but to a lesser degree.

What I am saying is that, (to further extrapolate the definition of aliveness here), to be truly alive, all ranges must be integrated. If and when they ARE, they will THEN all tend to "look" the same, which was the point I was trying to make earlier.

Sorry for the long-winded post. I just wanted to clarify the concept in my previous post.

Thanks!



-John

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