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#203648 - 11/17/05 07:41 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
...you just made my point. so, Okinawan Te was no longer Okinawans cup of Ti ? lol..ok, bad pun, couldn't resist.

How is it possible that practically ALL of the founders of something-Ryu had 3 or more influences (respected Sensei) without any of them being 'betrayers' ? answer: because they were not betraying anything or anybody.
Maybe, they were even encouraged to cross-train.

looking at the 19th century, you find Okinawan masters seeking chinese influences (or re-influences?) into toudi.
tou=tang=china (as in Tang dynasty) + di/ti/te=hand.

why were they doing that? for instance, was Higashionna trying to recapture something he felt was lost to time, or was he crosstraining his existing Art of 'Te'? In any case, was he viewed as betraying anything?

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#203649 - 11/17/05 10:03 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I don't think there was any betrayal just looking for a better way to defend themselves effectively and effeicently is what I believe was sought. In modren times these things can be looked over to the more glittery or profitable pretty or fancy method of a system making them a sport rather then a MA. IMHO.

Thats is a question to ponder. Whats was his mission if already trained in TE? I believe his past instructor adviced him to go to China. So it would seem there was no betrayal.


Edited by Neko456 (11/17/05 10:04 AM)
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#203650 - 11/17/05 03:36 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
The end of the Okinawan kingdom and the politial turmoil at the end of the 19th century in China marked the change in the training of tode. Before that time people would learn certain techniques/kata/applications with several masters and build their own curriculum. The studies in China were not only limited to martial arts but part of either academic study or related to diplomatic/business activities. Anyway, Chinese culture and manners were regarded as high standard in Okinawan society. Tode was never about fighting alone but must be seen in a brother cultural picture. The Okinawans would not limit themselves to one system only but apllied principles and training methods of several systems and added their own flavor. They made the system their own. But these evolutions were also part of the Chinese traditions.
Since the 1920ies, the Chinese influence was minimal due to the political environment. Nowadays, thanks to our information and communication society, arts are evolving again and there are 2 approaches. Throw away what you cannot use/apply and replace by what you can use/apply or reverse engeneering: try to apply/use something new in existing method/principles. Try to figure out if this new thing was already there.
Betrayal or not, the first way will lead to a converted or newer system, the second will stay within his lineage and is referred to as 'traditional'.
What counts for me is that I have fun while training and this implies renovating constantly as my body and knowledge changes.
Is lineage important ? It depends on what you are trying to sell to yourselves and/or others.

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#203651 - 11/17/05 07:53 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: CVV]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Wow. I forget how many of you on this forum were smart and insightiful. All the responses have been great and I've been humbled.

Anyway my final take on this is that lineage probably only means something to someone who comes from a solid one. I'm sure that a kid who is taking "Master Jimmy Crackcorn's Eclectic Freestyle American Kenpo Karate" wouldn't even know what a legit lineage is let alone care.

You know everyone always hypes up e-budo, but out of all the sites with good martial artists posting on them this forum is tops IMHO. You guys know your stuff and I respect that.

Don't get big-headed though. I'm bound to have a heated debate with some of you sooner or later. If that happens don't take it personally.

Great thread, Edward!

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#203652 - 11/17/05 10:22 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
yes, good thread Brian...that's BrIan with an 'I'.

If you trace the lineage of this thread waaay back to the first page and first post, you'll find the spawner of this family, we call him our Threadstarter.
Thread-brothers, thats what us Nth-gen posters are...and nobody...I mean NOBODY can take that away from us. (except maybe the Admin and a 'lock thread' button)

Good thread BrianS. So, in response to your friend who brought all of this up, ask him what he be sellin' and see what you be smellin'. Then tell him you're mellon be gellin from his fellon. lol

p.s. only my Mother calls me 'Edward'

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#203653 - 11/18/05 07:40 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Thanks Ed! I agree with SonofSoken(lol). Lots of good and knowledgeable people here,best on the web!

I really don't want to talk to that guy much anymore.Besides,he's hard to get a word in edgewise on because he's too busy talking about what he knows.

He has a good lineage,probably better than mine,but I do know mine and I take pride in it.
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#203654 - 11/18/05 12:28 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I'm sure that a kid who is taking "Master Jimmy Crackcorn's Eclectic Freestyle American Kenpo Karate" wouldn't even know what a legit lineage is let alone care.




Oy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#203655 - 11/18/05 01:10 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Quote:

Quote:

I'm sure that a kid who is taking "Master Jimmy Crackcorn's Eclectic Freestyle American Kenpo Karate" wouldn't even know what a legit lineage is let alone care.




Oy.




Oy. Double oy.

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#203656 - 11/18/05 01:26 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Oy vey !

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#203657 - 11/18/05 02:09 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Well, Ed, Matt and I are two of the more prominent practitioners of AKK on this forum. And we do care about the lineage of the style, which is part of the reason we both got out of AKK, just too much politics over who was taught by who.

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