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#203638 - 11/16/05 05:15 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: MattJ]
SonOfSoken Offline

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13


Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip.

Problem with assumed intent? Where would he get that idea, sonny? Maybe from this:

"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...

Oh I get it..... it was a joke. You weren't trying to be arrogant and pedantic. Good one sonny....

What's up with the sonny, fool? I was being arrogant AND funny smart-a$$! Don't get it twisted!!!


Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.

True. And if you want to go there, space is not real in the same sense. But I'm sure you already knew that. Welcome back.

For the not reals? Word?! WORD!!!

Good to be a nuisance again, at least temporarily... Peace, fools!!!

#203639 - 11/16/05 05:18 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
SonOfSoken Offline

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13

lol...'eddie' - my sisters are the only ones who call me that.

I've got nothing against you. I'm not even offended by your tone. BTW, I didn't see the first of your back-to-back posts, the one discribing how someone e-mailed your sensei...if thats true, it's pretty disturbing and makes me think twice of what I write on here. just seems ugly no matter how much of a$$ people think someone is.

your point about moderation makes sense. there might be hope for you yet.

Yeah many people suck and then they are made aware of that fact and they get mad at you for bringing it up.

As far as the moderation thing, I HOPE there's hope for my silly ass!!! I am moderate in moderation I suppose...

No worries bro....

#203640 - 11/16/05 08:46 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you'll see less of people's sucky side if you keep your posting to your technical knowledge rather than your emotionally charged ego displays.

but since this thread is not all about you, back on topic...I came across a good quote on this:

"If you want to know why lineage is so important, ask the people who fake it."
- John Lindsey (e-budo admin)

#203641 - 11/16/05 09:49 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

Now that Eddie and Sonny have made each other's day (with a little 'help' from Matt) I say that in the old days, lineage was very important. By old days, I would say pre-WWII when a lot of old masters were still alive and teaching. MA, as everything else, was change forever by the second 'great' war.

Why important? because of the psychotic secrecy that used to surround the teaching / transmission of MA knowledge; yes, 'knowledge' not technique because what is displayed in public or taught to "outdoor" students were intentionally very different from what an "indoor" student learnt. Those who have gone through their own family system will know what I meant.

As I said before, I just have to mention that I learnt this or that from my grandfather, a knowledgeable listener will blindly assume that whatever I learnt from grandpa has to be the real thing because grandpas will never hold back on his grandkids. If an outsider were to say he learnt the same thing from my grandpa, there will aways be an element of doubt. Would you think that of Ueshiba Morihei's son?

Now, perhaps in an atmosphere of cartesian pragmatism and also unbridled competition among masters for fee-paying students, things are viewed differently (thus the new-age idea of a MA seminar was born) Added to this is the modern tendency to mix-match anything from clothes, shoes, handbags to MA. Going through the whole system of any particular MA would take too long and in any case not necessary, unlike before where cross-training was viewed as betrayal. There is, like everthing else in life, good and bad to all this.

My point? acknowledged lineage meant credible legitimacy.

Whether it has anything to do with qualitative effectiveness is another thing all together.
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

#203642 - 11/16/05 10:34 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Mark Hill Offline

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I love it, the argument is circling back to my point: your immediate teacher is more important.

So you have three teachers.

1. Dr Krunkenstein

2. A teacher whose teacher was a Nidan under Ron Lindsey, but taught XMA

3. Me

Krunkeinstein might have the big inheritance, but I am still better than the XMA-Seido guy - why? Lineage is very easily broken. Hohan Soken was revered beacuse (I'm not sure) was taught by Nabe. Nabe was revered because he was taught by Sokon Matsumura. All were revered teachers because they produced the goods as martial artists.

So eventually, a lineage coming from the XMA-Seido guy might turn good with a good student with an open mind and good work ethic. Like a flower growing out of a pot of dirt!

Dr Krunkeinstein could also sell out, and his student's lineage be worthless, but his still intact.

A chain is only as strong as the weakest link - or the next one along the line.

#203643 - 11/16/05 10:58 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
a post with two replies:

butterflypalm: You might be hot, but I think you are wrong.

unlike before where cross-training was viewed as betrayal

No it wasn't. take a look at Okinawa, turn of the 20th century and get back with what you find out. people didn't get into all of that secrecy 'business' just for secrecy sake. c'mon now. people keep secrets of It when they are either selling It or using It against each other.

Mark, good point....and funny.

#203644 - 11/17/05 02:23 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Any relevance in confucianism, respect for ancestors, or other philosophical or religious beliefes of that part of Asia? I don't know about Okinawan(as it seems to be the main focus of this discussion) religious/philosophical beliefs, but could that shed any light on the subject?

Nothing to add, just maybe provoking more thought.

PS-I'm enjoying reading this, guys. Keep it up.

Edited by JoelM (11/17/05 02:24 AM)
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

#203645 - 11/17/05 03:01 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
interesting, culture is always part of every change in any generation, but hard to nail down exactly (especially for me, since I really don't know all that much about it) I'm not sure.
The only point I've been trying to suggest is that even if someone looks at lineage as a family tree, it never tells the whole story of where the Art is coming from. Each generation has their requirements, needs or opportunity...often even those change within a single generation. If history has taught us anything (in regard to the topic) it teaches that people make do with what they have at the time of crisis/need/opportunity and improvise as neccessary... why wouldn't karate follow that same logic of how humans have used tools?

following that train of thought, I'm just saying lineage can't be separated from historical objectives.

some have a direct lineage of training with masters who optimised their Art for sport. (thats what they were TRYING to do)
some have a direct lineage optimised for self-defense.
some have a blurring of the two lineages, which worked out perfect because the practictioner needed both for whatever reason.

The most important thing about lineage isn't just appreciating a tree of leaves having nametags.

#203646 - 11/17/05 03:09 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo
I'm not even going to pretend to have read all of this; i'll just throw in my 2 cents. Lineage doesn't always mean tracing the origins of your system or any one system back to the beginning. Even a person who has studied several styles has a lineage. It just has more branches. Lineage IS important and i feel those who don't think so are either kidding themselves or don't fully grasp the idea. Ask yourself this. If you met an individual who has only studied under say Ashida Kim, how much credibility would you give their skill? Because you know his instructor (lineage) the chances of their skill being dismissed would greatly go up. What if you know the individual to not have any lineage at all (fully self taught), how much faith would you put in their ability? Lineage can help you determine the legitimacy of the instructor and/or art. If there is a school in your area claiming to teach BJJ but the instructor can only provide you with his training background in TKD would you really be willing to believe he is teaching BJJ? Based on his lineage i would say no. Now if you found a school making the same claims but the instructor was taught and ranked by a member of the Gracie family what would you think then?

Just like anything in the martial arts or life in general you can't take everything at face value. A person/arts lineage is only a tool to help you determine the usefulness, validity or legitimacy of an art/instructor. You shouldn't dismiss it or rely solely on it to make your decision. Many of the "good" lineages are thought of that way because it's well known that their way of training has been effective. They have been proven effective for a long time and it's known that the practitioners aren't simply handed their ranking or certification.

I also noticed something said about creating a new style and it being just as effective or more effective than an older style because it's not "outdated". I personally would like to believe that in the last 2000 years or so there hasn't been a "new" way of fighting developed, only different perspectives. When a long time practitioner of Shotokan develops their own style they aren't creating anything new, even if they add other arts to it. They are only doing what is meant of them, making the art their own. Part of the reason we have so many variations of arts is because these people have found what works best for them in the art and some how felt they have improved something. They then go on to rename it and market it as "their" style when it is only their interpretation of the style. I don't think this is good or bad for the arts in general. On one hand this is in part the cause of the original training of that art being lost to some extent but at the same time it affords people more options to train in similar variations of the same art based on whoís interpretation fits them best. What Iím getting at is just because a system has been around for a couple hundred years doesnít mean itís less effective or watered down nor does it mean itís more effective. Just as more ďmodernĒ arts donít always equal more effective arts.

Regardless of if you think you are influenced by a personís lineage the fact is you are in some way. I do think people and arts that focus too much on lineage are missing the point too. A good majority of the people Iíve met who focus more on what art has the longest lineage are usually hiding behind their lineage.
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

#203647 - 11/17/05 03:22 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

But I am still happy

Turn of the century Okinawa was not a good counter-point. They were trying to learn what they could from the Chinese, not the other way around. The Chinese already have complete systems to last a few life times. The Okinawans were doing the mixing and matching.

By 'betrayal' I meant an implication that your master's art lack something and so requires supplementing through cross-training.

When, as a youngster, I told my family members I wanted to learn Judo, I got some shocked 'Whys!'
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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