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#203628 - 11/16/05 12:31 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Ed, a fair question you posted earlier. I would say that the awarness that you learn in a modern (tink Vietnam) battlefield would indeed prepare you to be a warrior. Would I qualify these guys with the likes of Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura? No, I dont think so. Some may have excelled in thier ability to kill and even may have been great H2H combat guys. I do not know how they would fair against Matsumura honestly. But I will stand by my statement that battle tried and proven is an important qualification in an empty hand fighting art, IMHO.
Paul Hart

#203629 - 11/16/05 12:56 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Nice to see you back Son of the Omega Krunked Verse. This place was getting a little dull.

#203630 - 11/16/05 10:29 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Let's remember to keep it dull,and on topic.

It is not about who's karate is real,battle tested,or how weak and stupid we all are compared to others.
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#203631 - 11/16/05 02:15 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
traq Offline

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 131
Loc: SoCal
well, I believe that lineage is important, but not as a bragging tool. Lineage isn't something that sets you apart from other schools (unless your style was literally just "made up" at some point ), it connects you with other schools. A friend of mine says, "If it's karate, we at least have Karate Sakugawa in common." Understanding your martial arts lineage can help you understand the evolution of your style and ultimately benefits your training.

USKO lineage (shorin ryu):

Joseph Pagliuso (Founder) & Michael Visser (Director)
Richard Nakano
Walter Nishioka (also trained under Funakoshi)
Hironori Ohtsuka
Gichin Funakoshi
Yasutsune Azato & Yasutsune Itosu
Sokon Matsumaura
Tode Sakugawa
Peichin Takahara
Adrian USKO Riverside dojo/ Madison Elem. after-school

#203632 - 11/16/05 03:06 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: phoenixsflame]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California


The oldest MA reputedly comes from India or was it Africa? I think MA should technically date back to the first day someone picked up a stone and flung it at someone else instead of at a deer or something.

We can trace our lineage as far back as we want, but our time's better spent training instead of being nostalgic.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Its not about tracing the martial art back to the original forms. Its about the birth of a different approach and how long its been evolving.

I personally trust a dojo whose lineage is more traditional above a lot of the "Modern" nontrad groups. I've seen the students of these Dojo's/Kwoon's/Dojang's and I've not been impressed. However, those who are more traditional, I have found to be a better group in general. (There are exceptions to both cases mind you.)

I think it goes back a lot to the Dojo-Kun... Most modern Karate's don't pay homage... I studied at a Modern Shorin-Ryu Shorin-Kan Dojo in California, no respect, the supposed Kyoshin/Leader of this group of people was at most pathetic. I wouldn't lump him in with Traditional because there was no sense of tradition in what he did. Only winning in competitions.

Yet, I find a smaller, less prominent dojo who pays homage to tradition and find humble people.

You can argue both sides of the theoretic "Lineage VS Non-Lineage" but it is all up to opinion. Those people who are more serious about their training, less concerned with Competitions and that sort of thing will almost certainly go Traditional. Those who are interested in "Extreme Martial Arts" (A nice oxy moron there for you guys to chew on) will float more towards the non-lineage lines...

I think you should get better informed about modern MA, BJJ and JKD are very effective.

The concept that somehow "things were better in the old days" is far too prevalent in the MA and imho is leading to stagnation in the arts.

Just because a style is old doesn't make it better. The practitioners of today can be worse than their predecessors. And even back in the "old days" they had Bullshido (dance passed off as MA). Lineage doesn't count for much when it comes to quality of instruction and it certainly doesn't validate looking down upon newer arts.
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

#203633 - 11/16/05 04:11 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
SonOfSoken Offline

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13

You're trying to be hurtful, but it just sounds dumb.

I wasn't talking about Military H2H training or even modern military necessarily ...I was talking about Military H2H blood-gurgling war {glub-glub} experience.
maybe it was missed, but I tried to make a distinction between which appropriate battlefields to train for nowadays for my suburban-a$$... war or self-defense. I forgot that you are living in 18th century Okinawa, so your threats may be different than from someone, lets say, shopping at a mall.

to tie this back on topic, I think looking at lineage can educate us as to what type of 'battlefield' each generation trained (and perhaps modified) the Art which was handed down.

always a pleasure, B.C. , M.V. (or is it S.O.S. now)

"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...

Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.

1800 Okinawa, China or Japan was probably pretty rough compared to now. If a man died or was permanently disabled then that meant your family might die too. That's a huge difference in training for self-preservation vs. SD. Something to think about.

But yeah I agree with your last statement. One thing we all can't forget is- "don't fix it if it ain't broke". There is always room for individual tailor fitting and sound modifications. The great teachers will always say this. Hohan Soken learned from various teachers after he had a strong foundation in his family system as did Kano, Miyagi, Matsumura, Funakoshi, Kenwa, Chotoku Kyan, Higa Yuchoku, Oyama and so on. To modify something because you don't know what the original answers to the question were and then claim you are making things better is just dishonest. If you train with a sensei or coach or instructor and the solutions they give you for certain problems work perfectly for you then why modify?

Those guys who supposedly "modified" something for the better (when it comes to karate at least) probably didn't have the level of understanding or the proper training to address those questions in the first place. I won't mention names or styles but, trust me, they are myriad. They probably also wanted to make their imprint by being innovators of an innovation even if they were nothing of the sort. Or they just wanted clout and money...

If anyone's intent with a striking prevalent art is to make it an all out affair with full contact sparring as an emphasis then they have a problem with fooling themselves because, at this time and all times before, there is no way to test your repertoire of skills completely with an all encompassing MA that includes striking as its emphasis (real karate) as with a grappling art. To test yourself by continuously kicking your own butt and giving yourself brain and body damage is really defeating the purpose of it all. That's what folks who are perpetual journeyman or sport-billy types can't understand. It's just beyond their scope of training and understanding.

Conversely, training with little or no contact, using flashy, amorphous forms/kata and refusing to understand proper biomechanics and physics, i.o.w. fitting square pegs into round holes, will get you nowhere except hurt if you ever have to use your pseudo-fighting skills for real.

Everything, EVERYTHING has a fine median. Moderation in all things, like J.C. said, or travel the middle path like Buddha emphasized. So lineage AND style aren't everything but they are good reference points- where you came from and where you might be going.

Back to relevant training and environ. I think that guns, aside, the threats from an assailant or a host of them haven't changed with the times. The lessons of old school karate, chuan fa and aikijujutsu are very relevant to any time period. They all address the problem of self-preservation during times of less structure and more entropy.

Having said all that, I'm not being hurtful in anyway. I'm a veteran myself who dealt with all branches and I can tell you that they are no better equipped for mano-a-mano fighting than your average person, war experience or not. Now military brats, that might be a different thing altogether due to the fact you often have to fight growing up because with the constant moves (PCS') you are always the stranger who has to prove himself. But their parents? Unless they are SpecOps they aren't any tougher than the average dude and their war training/experience often does nothing but give them PTSD or slowly erode their empathy and conscience, two things you need in order to be a true warrior IMO.

I'll also say again that the ring or cage, even MMAs, doesn't prepare one any more adequately for real life confrontation than GOOD TMAs training, no matter what Dana White's S&M loving self claims!

Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip...

Dr. S.O.S. Omegakrunkenversed, PhD in Reality from F.U.!!!

#203634 - 11/16/05 04:35 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lol...'eddie' - my sisters are the only ones who call me that.

I've got nothing against you. I'm not even offended by your tone. BTW, I didn't see the first of your back-to-back posts, the one discribing how someone e-mailed your sensei...if thats true, it's pretty disturbing and makes me think twice of what I write on here. just seems ugly no matter how much of a$$ people think someone is.

your point about moderation makes sense. there might be hope for you yet.

back to topic before the thread gets shut down: I think one of the glaring points I'm getting from the thread (the on topic parts) is that lineage doesn't matter how far back you can trace, but rather the important thing is the path that your Art took on it's way to you.

#203635 - 11/16/05 04:44 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I think the present interpretation of an art is more important than its lineage. If the present students and instructors of an art aren't doing a good job of training and teaching it, no amount of history will make it good.
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

#203636 - 11/16/05 04:48 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA

Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip.

Problem with assumed intent? Where would he get that idea, sonny? Maybe from this:


"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...

Oh I get it..... it was a joke. You weren't trying to be arrogant and pedantic. Good one sonny.


Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.

True. And if you want to go there, space is not real in the same sense. But I'm sure you already knew that. Welcome back.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#203637 - 11/16/05 04:49 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I feel it is important to know your schools or systems lineage as history as it is with anything you seek to follow. But I don't think it illegitmize todays Trad systems of training in the since that its better or worst then more recent or ecelctics arts.

But it is good to know a systems history and its following. At least you have an idea of what to expect and what is being taught and can see the modren results. Some systems can be so new or mis-aligned that they teach nothing but a bunch of moves, others so much in a dis-array that their is no begining or no progress to a certain level of learning. Of course there are some old methods teaching/training that are out dated.

New is not always shining & bright and Old is not always dull and rusty.

There are some Good New Ideas and systems and there are some Good Old Systems and ideas. And of course you can flip that coin.

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