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#203608 - 11/14/05 05:30 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Trefathell]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:



This very much sounds like an old fashioned Englishman talking. It kinda reminds me of a classbound viewpoint prevalent when I was a boy. This is all outdated and in any case in such a practical world of the martial arts the initiated are not easily fooled. If I see anyone flashing their credentials I am automatically cautious, but within a very short time of seeing what is happening in the Dojo I think I can tell when someone is blagging it.

Trefathell




How to wind up a Scotsman in 1 easy sentence!!!
I personally train in a style that is relitively new founded in Japan. We do not 'pay hommage' to a past grand master or anything like that but we do use Japanese customs etc which is a big part of the training as far as I am concerned. A student from the Japanese headquarters is training with us at the moment and he is very impressed with our efforts to learn the basic sayings etc.

What you were saying about the class society has gone down a lot in the UK, but is still very much a part of our society nomatter what anyone says about a classless society. I think the point I was trying to make is that a lot of TMA practitioners do not value the quality of some of the MA out there.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but just because a style is newer and doesn't have 46 dead guys claiming it was great, does not make in inferior. IMHO
_________________________
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

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#203609 - 11/14/05 06:38 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
But Ashihara student,

Despite not activeley acknowledging lineage...you can still derive it.

Funakoshi to Oyama Mas....Yamuguchi's Goju to So to Oyama Mas.

Oyama Mas to Ashihara...to your instructor. Whether noted or not, lineage is still there through traceable records acknowledging where instruction came from.

-B

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#203610 - 11/14/05 07:18 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
AshiharaStudent

I go with Butterfly on this.

Like I said beore "lineage" is another word for "history."

Where your techniques come from?--unless they were invented out of whole cloth.

Whom taught whom what?

How long did they study?

When they learned it?

Under what circumstances?

etc.

I'd kinda like to know if techniques my teacher was teaching were learned during 3 months of training at the local gym.
Or are the result of 20 years of dedicated training and a couple of stints on the Olympic judo team.

"Lineage" won't help make you a better fighter---will help you to understand your art.

As you say not "having 46 dead guys claiming it was great does not make it inferior."

Your correct---however arts having the "46 dead guys" does not make THEM inferior either.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#203611 - 11/14/05 11:04 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I was wondering were you had gotten to, Bryan.

I for one have missed having you around. Not always the most popular point of view, but factual and jolting and thought provoking.

Welcome back man.

Page

PS No brothers!
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#203612 - 11/15/05 12:01 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BuDoc]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

I was wondering were you had gotten to, Bryan.

I for one have missed having you around. Not always the most popular point of view, but factual and jolting and thought provoking.

Welcome back man.

Page

PS No brothers!




How are you Page? I hope all is well!

I should have made my brother question clearer. I had a friend in HS named John Morris who had two younger bros- Ed and Richard. I was just wondering.

I will say that the quality of discussion on TOMAs has gone down quite a bit since I was booted. It's like Philly and T.O., cut your nose off to spite your face. Another example of obstinate idiocy. That's what happens when everyday Joes and Josephinas are running things. You can cut out the creme de la creme; we will always rise to the top while mud sinks, hahaha!

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#203613 - 11/15/05 12:23 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
hey bryan,
What am I chopped liver here? No hi, how ya doin' oldman?
Sheesh whats a guy gotta to around here to get some respect, practice real karate or somethin!!!

Ironicly my brother's name is Morris.

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#203614 - 11/15/05 08:37 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: cxt]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:

AshiharaStudent

I go with Butterfly on this.

Like I said beore "lineage" is another word for "history."

Where your techniques come from?--unless they were invented out of whole cloth.

Whom taught whom what?

How long did they study?

When they learned it?

Under what circumstances?

etc.

I'd kinda like to know if techniques my teacher was teaching were learned during 3 months of training at the local gym.
Or are the result of 20 years of dedicated training and a couple of stints on the Olympic judo team.

"Lineage" won't help make you a better fighter---will help you to understand your art.

As you say not "having 46 dead guys claiming it was great does not make it inferior."

Your correct---however arts having the "46 dead guys" does not make THEM inferior either.




I think I get what you mean.... Someone who starts their own style no doubt got their influences from training in another style(s) for many years and that means that this is part of the lineage.
_________________________
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

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#203615 - 11/15/05 08:38 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Your points are taken, Bryan. I'm glad I was wrong about the assumptions I made, thanks for speaking up.
(lol 'SonOfSoken'...nice)
still, sooner or later, some hint of what I was guessing about inevitably shines thru in a sentance here and there.
Quote:

That's what happens when everyday Joes and Josephinas are running things. You can cut out the creme de la creme; we will always rise to the top while mud sinks


My point being, even if it's true, why do some feel the need to say so and others do not?

I don't have brothers by those names. and nobody in my lineage has ever been to Texas.

In many ways I suppose I am a 'kuchi bushi'...or maybe it would be more accurate to invent a modern term 'kompuuta bushi'. since I probably spend more time reading online about stuff than I do practicing it. It wasn't always that way, but it is now. So it's safe to assume that my part-time karotty isn't up to snuff to your full-time real-deal. ok. I think there are private forums for elites like yourself. Of course if you really are an elite Karateman, then posting in a mediocre forum would make you, what? Don't get me wrong, I learn something on each of your posts and wish you did still post here. your humor ain't bad either.

on topic...about the education/MA lineage analogy.
After B.U. and Northeastern U. I went to Harvard Grad school and dropped out after the first semester before matriculating. On a resume, would it be correct for me to outright claim Harvard lineage? no, of course not. but if it helps me get the job, I'll acurately mention I did some classes there. - it wouldn't really matter though, because either you can perform the job or not...lineage wouldn't mean squat after getting the job. I've seen some community college grads run circles around us University grads.

Lineage might help get the job, but it doesn't do anything for you in order to keep the job.

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#203616 - 11/15/05 08:55 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Good analogy, Ed. So where does that analogy leave me, the MA from UC Berkely to your PhD from an Ivy league school? Seriously, it works quite well. Considering some of the people running this country, (and anyone can insert who they want into that quote), I see exactly what you mean. Alot of the people who have degrees from Harvard, Princeton, or Yale are acting like complete morons, whereas the guys from the state run colleges are running their much smaller enterprises far more efficiently and profitably.

Maybe that's why you didn't make it at Harvard, you're just too smart for them, Ed

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#203617 - 11/15/05 09:11 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
This analogy of lineage and institutional education/colleges is representative of MA lineage. Big name college means you pay big bucks, and if you get through it you get the BB/degree. That whole equation of time spent and money spent can be proven with something in the hand.

But Harvard, believe it or not, has had some crappy teachers. And many graduates don't get jobs in their field. So, you've got the paper, and by inference, acquired something intangible (legitimacy, quality, worth, whatever) in trade for an investment. But it doesn't make you smart, a better person, or even guarantee 'product control'. For example, I knew an accountant who graduated top of his class from Notre Dame, was scooped up to work in 'the Gold Building' at a big name corporation, wooed with cars and apartments, and he was good at what he did. One small problem. He was an A$$ who started every sentence with 'I', with the ethics of a goat. So, by this I should infer that Notre Dame produces very good accountants but very corrupt people?

In this case, I think that the lineage was more than the degree...and that he never got it.


Edited by harlan (11/15/05 09:28 AM)

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