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#203598 - 11/14/05 09:40 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

Lineage to me does not mean that much. As far as I'm concerned, things improve with time and when people talk about their lineage it is just like these people who talk about the posh school they went to at a job interview (jobs for the boys).
It does not mean that they are smarter or a better choice for the job it just means that they are using it to try and get an advantage. In the real world this does not hold much weight as there are always going to be people better than you from different backgrounds....

The same applies to martial arts.





See, I can't agree with this. The main reason is that a few very poorly trained and misguided martial artists may turn their lineage from a respectful nod to those who came before them... To a pedigree. That is wrong, however...

I agree that arts change and grow over time, I would say that is the reason I think lineage is important. Lineage isn't saying "My art hasn't changed since (blank)" Its saying how long it has been practiced, how long it has been experimented with, changed and brought to life. Who would you trust to know more about self defense...

A person who just created the art, or someone whose building upon 7 generations of knowledge? Not just parroting those who came before them mind you, but actually building and growing with it.
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While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#203599 - 11/14/05 09:49 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
As a newbie, I have asked what lineage is and the discussion seems to devolve into art 'history' that basically is used to bolster some kind of MA superiority or integrity.

I consider lineage to be the same as one's last name. How important is your last name to you? What does it mean? If you move far away what are you bringing with you? If you marry, and 'lose' your name (kinda like switching styles) do you give anything up? It's about intangibles.

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#203600 - 11/14/05 11:11 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: harlan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
One importance of lineage is understanding how the techniques/strategies in the kata were used by the old masters. For instance the yoi/ready stance with the hands in fists by the waist was the stance used by the bodyguards of the ryukuan kings/regents when standing behind them. It would be impractical to stand in a fighting stance with hands up when walking down the street or at a formal function. From this stance a method of leaping into action suddenly was developed, trained, and passed on in the kata. Some styles of karate dismiss this stance as "useless" and discard it while others don't understand its purpose and misuse it. Lineage is not only history of founders, but of kata and understanding its useage. Lineage will also allow people to understand what changes where made to their art and why which will further allow people to understand what they do and why they do it.

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#203601 - 11/14/05 11:38 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: medulanet]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
The oldest MA reputedly comes from India or was it Africa? I think MA should technically date back to the first day someone picked up a stone and flung it at someone else instead of at a deer or something.

We can trace our lineage as far back as we want, but our time's better spent training instead of being nostalgic.
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#203602 - 11/14/05 11:51 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Leo_E_49]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

The oldest MA reputedly comes from India or was it Africa? I think MA should technically date back to the first day someone picked up a stone and flung it at someone else instead of at a deer or something.

We can trace our lineage as far back as we want, but our time's better spent training instead of being nostalgic.




Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Its not about tracing the martial art back to the original forms. Its about the birth of a different approach and how long its been evolving.

I personally trust a dojo whose lineage is more traditional above a lot of the "Modern" nontrad groups. I've seen the students of these Dojo's/Kwoon's/Dojang's and I've not been impressed. However, those who are more traditional, I have found to be a better group in general. (There are exceptions to both cases mind you.)

I think it goes back a lot to the Dojo-Kun... Most modern Karate's don't pay homage... I studied at a Modern Shorin-Ryu Shorin-Kan Dojo in California, no respect, the supposed Kyoshin/Leader of this group of people was at most pathetic. I wouldn't lump him in with Traditional because there was no sense of tradition in what he did. Only winning in competitions.

Yet, I find a smaller, less prominent dojo who pays homage to tradition and find humble people.

You can argue both sides of the theoretic "Lineage VS Non-Lineage" but it is all up to opinion. Those people who are more serious about their training, less concerned with Competitions and that sort of thing will almost certainly go Traditional. Those who are interested in "Extreme Martial Arts" (A nice oxy moron there for you guys to chew on) will float more towards the non-lineage lines...
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While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#203603 - 11/14/05 11:55 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: phoenixsflame]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Phoenix.
Nice explination.

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#203604 - 11/14/05 11:56 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
It's about faith...a committment. About being given something, and faithfully passing it along in the same spirit it was given.

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#203605 - 11/14/05 01:47 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: harlan]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I will only speak for for Okinawan Karate.

In the old times you did not get to walk into a one of many dojos and sign up to train.

If you wanted to train you had to seek out an instructor. How do you do this? By the instructors reputation. Who has he trained, who trained him/her.

Then you had to be accepted. Who have you trained with before. Who trained them.

In both cases it is a question of lineage.

All things being equal , do you want to train BJJ(an example of a relatively short,modern lineage) with a Gracie, or the American/European/Asian(see it doesn't matter) student of a Machado?

I'm guessing that in your research, and all other things being equal you'll want to train with a Gracie. Closer to the root.

Now we know in the real world that things are never equal. There are good and bad dojos, good and bad instructors etc. etc. But when things are equal, or you just don't know, a long and succesful lineage helps tip the scale.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#203606 - 11/14/05 03:14 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
Trefathell Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 97
Quote:

Lineage to me does not mean that much. As far as I'm concerned, things improve with time and when people talk about their lineage it is just like these people who talk about the posh school they went to at a job interview (jobs for the boys).
It does not mean that they are smarter or a better choice for the job it just means that they are using it to try and get an advantage. In the real world this does not hold much weight as there are always going to be people better than you from different backgrounds....

The same applies to martial arts.




This very much sounds like an old fashioned Englishman talking. It kinda reminds me of a classbound viewpoint prevalent when I was a boy. This is all outdated and in any case in such a practical world of the martial arts the initiated are not easily fooled. If I see anyone flashing their credentials I am automatically cautious, but within a very short time of seeing what is happening in the Dojo I think I can tell when someone is blagging it.

Trefathell

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#203607 - 11/14/05 04:40 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

I was hoping you'd fill in the blank Page. Thanks for clarifying and adding.

since this is very much on topic, I'll cross-reference another thread here...
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...6/#Post15800519
You mentioned in that thread about people representing their Art well...you give the best image to the Matsumura Seito Art I have seen/read.
Since posting last Spring, my forum impression of this style was by (former?) members multiversed and PETER... while knowledgeable and interesting, there was something that wasn't quite right; they didn't seem to realize that the '-Jitsu' can co-exist with the '-Do' within a person, and in fact, they complement each other not cancel each other out - too much style pride even if it's justified, even if they really are some kind of 'elite' MAist, is blinding. Of course people are more complex than what someone sees on a forum, so I may very well be wrong...my point is that you seem to have a very good balance to your Art which carries over into your person and is apparent even online. There are several others who I think represent their respective arts equally as well. FWIW.

Now what I don't want is 'niceness retaliation'...that happens alot on forums. someone gives someone else a compliment and then that person never disagrees, embarrasses or challenges thought, as some kind of 'virtual loyalty' kindof thing. it's respectable, but at the same time...blech. Thats a subject for the sociologists. All I know is that I learn the most from people that can take and give honest but tactful opinion without politics or ego-stroking. There are some on here that are really good people and I'm learning. 'nuff o dat.

p.s. 'blank Page' - did anyone catch that pun?




"Jutsu" is not "Do", but the the Bujutsu of Budo is the best of karate.

Well it's good to see that you can deduce so much about a person over the web. I'm sure that those who know me and have trained with me feel that I'm a very good person who enjoys helping the less fortunate albeit with a forthright attitude about many things.

For years the real karate-ka have had to put up with being lumped together with the common "pyjama" wearing scrubs. We've been thrown into the same catgory regardless if we are intelligent people, good ring fighters, streetfighters and true MMAs types. You see real karate (usually the Okinawan variety) which was of Okinawan lineage was a MMA at one time and some of us have kept that intact. Heck some of us could fight very well and had fought very successfully on the blacktop growing up and as adults even before being introduced to karate. So we had a better vantage point as to what and who was legit and what wasn't.

We hear these average Bruce Lee emultaing dolts from all walks of the MAs world come on forums and in mag interviews talk about what is real and what ain't, and we not only laugh heartily we friggin' guffaw. How dare they attempt to tell us what is or is not real? Conversely we hear these McDojoists explain how all karate is the same or that lineage means squat (tell Harvard U. types that crap) and again we have to point and say "how the heck do you know"? What perspective or experiential base do you have? Like most they have none so some of the real karate-ka try their best to distance themselves from that gendai crap by being brash and confrontational. Is it wrong for a real karate person to defend their position from some kushi bushi? I feel it is.

One more thing, Ed, to lump me together with Peter is ridiculous. He isn't a legit MS BB. I trained with and received my nidan from a real sensei (Ron Lindsey) and my sensei in the PI (ulysses Aquino) was also a real karate-ka AND fighter. Beyond who I trained karate with my background is in judo and boxing as well as GJJ/CJJ and that gives me a little bit better vantage point than most uni-dimensional karate-ka. If what I say is untrue my bad. If my delivery is bad but my words are true shame on the reader for overlooking the truth by being distracted by the superficial. Plenty of folks in high positions come at you with that good-ole boy attitude replete with decorum and pretty window dressing, but they will straight up lie out their teeth and never blink.

I'm no polytrickshun, I'm a real man and karate-ka. I am a healer and have "good chi" or so I've been told. If you can gather what type of person I am by reading some junk I wrote on some inane forum then you need to get into the psychic business and help Chevron find some oil using those keen telepathic powers. If you met me and trained with me you'd love me, trust me. The real deal doesn't always kiss ass or butter stuff up so that an adults feelings aren't hurt. Especially on a supposedly anonymous forum. If you don't know now you know.

BTW Page is right. Kenshinkan is Matsumura Seito -INFLUENCED karate but it ain't the real. It's about something else baby, you can guess what I'm getting at. Kise is still one of the baddest (my sensei says so all the time) but he ain't teaching his students the Sui-di anymore, bro'. That's actually a good thing in a way.

(Btw, Do you have brothers named John and Richard?)

Hope all this helps clarify my position now I fade into the ether, again....

SonOfSoken formerly Omega Point and MV...

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