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#203588 - 11/12/05 01:46 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I really don't know much of my lineage. My sensei's teacher died in a car accident at the age of 42. I never met the man but I do know his first name and that's about it. I don't think it effects my skills any at all.

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#203589 - 11/12/05 12:42 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Diga]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
I think the point is not about how far back you can trace your lineage, but that you pay respect to those who came before you...

and about the MA from a hundred years ago comment. See...

If someone invents a martial art now, they can do so rather well. The problem is, one hundreds/two hundred, however long ago someone did just that. Except they've had years of refinement and practice... These older more traditional lineages are testimonies to their art because on the majority, the arts are dynamic, not static as some would claim. Its not about only doing the Kata that was originally passed down, but keeping the spirit.

If a martial art does not question and strive for furthering its art. It is dead, a living thing is constantly changing... I learned this in Shito-Ryu (Mabuni Lineage, Kenzo Mabuni just died this year, he will be missed.) because the arts I had practiced before had been static and when I came to Shito ryu, I felt the life in the art itself.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#203590 - 11/12/05 01:44 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
NEAS Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 168
Quote:

Fusei Kise studied under Hohan Soken.

The misplaced justification for people to say such things is since Hohan Soken bypassed the 'Japanification' of his Shorin style since he moved to S. America in the 30's and returned in the 50's (just going by memory, I don't remember the exact years).
That doesn't say anything more about lineage than say Higashionna's lineage. Unless they are a bushi-class snob I suppose. What it DOES say, is that Hohan Soken's version of Karate probably had the least amount of watering-down since it wasn't really influenced by the mass-production mentality of the 30's and 40's. There were hints of evidence that suggest there was some amount of holding back on some of the teachings-in effect watering it down for public consumption, but I certainly don't know for sure.
However, SINCE the 1950's he has had good and not so good students...some were not even students but claim to have been. From what I understand and heard, Fusei Kise is one of the legit good guys....but even some of HIS students are good/bad/ugly. and so on. It happens in every Art.




Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
To be bragging (like your guy did) that his art is decended thru a well known Master doesn't say anything about the sensei who claim to have studied thru that Master.

Find out the sensei of this guy...BuDoc might know them.

The lineage argument of this particular style is a well known argument and a source of pride....sometimes it is misplaced. The only time when it is not misplaced is when the person holding that lineage doesn't brag about it.

all this is just from what I've read and heard from various sources...it's not first-hand (except the opinions about bragging ).

moderator edit to fix quote.You have to put your response in after the quote


Edited by BrianS (11/12/05 04:19 PM)

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#203591 - 11/12/05 03:06 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: NEAS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
almost missed your hidden message...you aren't a ninja are you?
Quote:

Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?




Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
If you mean blind leading the blind, then yes, sometimes it happens.
If you mean the fox leading the sheep, again, sometimes yes.

does it affect you one way or another? Because it doesn't bother me to know that your art is superior.

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#203592 - 11/12/05 04:06 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

almost missed your hidden message...you aren't a ninja are you?
Quote:

Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?




Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
If you mean blind leading the blind, then yes, sometimes it happens.
If you mean the fox leading the sheep, again, sometimes yes.

does it affect you one way or another? Because it doesn't bother me to know that your art is superior.




I think the actual hidden message has something to do with "analising" and "sheep". I could be wrong though

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#203593 - 11/13/05 10:00 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Taison]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

0) Some warrior that served the king as bodyguard for his elephant.





And elephants can trace their lineage all the way to the mammoths; about how many million years?

Seriously, I understand that when the King rides his war elephants to war, he has 4 warriors each guarding one of the elephant's legs which were the first targets of the enemies.

So that master must have being something to be given such a big job.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#203594 - 11/13/05 02:35 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
How important is lineage?

It's of little value on the practice floor, there a more than competent instructor and hard work are the key.

But lineage is important in one very small way. Not that it goes back far, but that an instructor can share a lineage that holds up, such as who their instructor was, and their instructors instructor.

All time in the arts tells us, nobody is worth spending time with if you find out they are incapable of telling the truth about anything. You're better off studying finger painting than training with anyone, no matter how impressive they are, if they can't share the truth.

Past the the most important lineage is whether an instructor can share something that the ages will revere in the future.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#203595 - 11/14/05 04:11 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Taison]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I agree on this one.

Lineage tells nothing of how the teacher is. . . He may have been a student of Mas Oyama, Eyal Yanilov, BL or whoever, but is he good like the teacher? That's another question.

I think lineage is only good sometimes, just to know who he studied under, but not if he's good teacher.

-Taison out




Damn straight. I also agree with Victor. Your immediate teacher and how you train is more important. I am sure there are may bad teachers and practitioners with excellent lineage, and many lineage poor teachers who made what they could out of nothing...

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#203596 - 11/14/05 08:23 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Victor Smith]
Trefathell Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 97
Quote:

How important is lineage?

It's of little value on the practice floor, there a more than competent instructor and hard work are the key.

But lineage is important in one very small way. Not that it goes back far, but that an instructor can share a lineage that holds up, such as who their instructor was, and their instructors instructor.

All time in the arts tells us, nobody is worth spending time with if you find out they are incapable of telling the truth about anything. You're better off studying finger painting than training with anyone, no matter how impressive they are, if they can't share the truth.

Past the the most important lineage is whether an instructor can share something that the ages will revere in the future.




Well said Victor!
There is also another side to this in that those with a lineage get lumped in with the cowboys and feel a need to emphasize their differences in a way that the general public may be able to understand. Whether that happens in reality is another issue.

Someone said that the more a line branches off the stronger it gets!! From my experience within my own system the more a line branches off the more diluted and confused it gets. I accept it may be different from other people's perspective but I can only talk about what I know. I suppose it comes down to; if the original system had weaknesses that were never properly resolved, or if someone down the line/age passed it on badly or in an incomplete way.

Trefathell

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#203597 - 11/14/05 08:54 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Trefathell]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Lineage to me does not mean that much. As far as I'm concerned, things improve with time and when people talk about their lineage it is just like these people who talk about the posh school they went to at a job interview (jobs for the boys).
It does not mean that they are smarter or a better choice for the job it just means that they are using it to try and get an advantage. In the real world this does not hold much weight as there are always going to be people better than you from different backgrounds....

The same applies to martial arts.
_________________________
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

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