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We can trace our lineage back further than any other styles that I know.

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So! Does this make you feel superior? Is it relevant to your potential?
What if I took a style that I can only trace back half as far? Is it only half as good?

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0) Some warrior that served the king as bodyguard for his elephant.

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Well, I'm impressed.

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As someone else mentioned - it doesn't matter if your teacher learned from an age old master if he didn't really get it himself or doesn't know how to spread his knowledge to others.

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If you don't know your rot, how can you place yourself in the entire picture?

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Fusei Kise studied under Hohan Soken.

The misplaced justification for people to say such things is since Hohan Soken bypassed the 'Japanification' of his Shorin style since he moved to S. America in the 30's and returned in the 50's (just going by memory, I don't remember the exact years).
That doesn't say anything more about lineage than say Higashionna's lineage. Unless they are a bushi-class snob I suppose. What it DOES say, is that Hohan Soken's version of Karate probably had the least amount of watering-down since it wasn't really influenced by the mass-production mentality of the 30's and 40's. There were hints of evidence that suggest there was some amount of holding back on some of the teachings-in effect watering it down for public consumption, but I certainly don't know for sure.
However, SINCE the 1950's he has had good and not so good students...some were not even students but claim to have been. From what I understand and heard, Fusei Kise is one of the legit good guys....but even some of HIS students are good/bad/ugly. and so on. It happens in every Art.

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Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
To be bragging (like your guy did) that his art is decended thru a well known Master doesn't say anything about the sensei who claim to have studied thru that Master.

Find out the sensei of this guy...BuDoc might know them.

The lineage argument of this particular style is a well known argument and a source of pride....sometimes it is misplaced. The only time when it is not misplaced is when the person holding that lineage doesn't brag about it.

all this is just from what I've read and heard from various sources...it's not first-hand (except the opinions about bragging ).

moderator edit to fix quote.You have to put your response in after the quote

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Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?

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Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
If you mean blind leading the blind, then yes, sometimes it happens.
If you mean the fox leading the sheep, again, sometimes yes.

does it affect you one way or another? Because it doesn't bother me to know that your art is superior.

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almost missed your hidden message...you aren't a ninja are you?

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Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?

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Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
If you mean blind leading the blind, then yes, sometimes it happens.
If you mean the fox leading the sheep, again, sometimes yes.

does it affect you one way or another? Because it doesn't bother me to know that your art is superior.

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I think the actual hidden message has something to do with "analising" and "sheep". I could be wrong though

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0) Some warrior that served the king as bodyguard for his elephant.

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And elephants can trace their lineage all the way to the mammoths; about how many million years?

Seriously, I understand that when the King rides his war elephants to war, he has 4 warriors each guarding one of the elephant's legs which were the first targets of the enemies.

So that master must have being something to be given such a big job.

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I agree on this one.

Lineage tells nothing of how the teacher is. . . He may have been a student of Mas Oyama, Eyal Yanilov, BL or whoever, but is he good like the teacher? That's another question.

I think lineage is only good sometimes, just to know who he studied under, but not if he's good teacher.

-Taison out

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How important is lineage?

It's of little value on the practice floor, there a more than competent instructor and hard work are the key.

But lineage is important in one very small way. Not that it goes back far, but that an instructor can share a lineage that holds up, such as who their instructor was, and their instructors instructor.

All time in the arts tells us, nobody is worth spending time with if you find out they are incapable of telling the truth about anything. You're better off studying finger painting than training with anyone, no matter how impressive they are, if they can't share the truth.

Past the the most important lineage is whether an instructor can share something that the ages will revere in the future.

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Lineage to me does not mean that much. As far as I'm concerned, things improve with time and when people talk about their lineage it is just like these people who talk about the posh school they went to at a job interview (jobs for the boys).
It does not mean that they are smarter or a better choice for the job it just means that they are using it to try and get an advantage. In the real world this does not hold much weight as there are always going to be people better than you from different backgrounds....

The same applies to martial arts.

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The oldest MA reputedly comes from India or was it Africa? I think MA should technically date back to the first day someone picked up a stone and flung it at someone else instead of at a deer or something.

We can trace our lineage as far back as we want, but our time's better spent training instead of being nostalgic.

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Lineage to me does not mean that much. As far as I'm concerned, things improve with time and when people talk about their lineage it is just like these people who talk about the posh school they went to at a job interview (jobs for the boys).
It does not mean that they are smarter or a better choice for the job it just means that they are using it to try and get an advantage. In the real world this does not hold much weight as there are always going to be people better than you from different backgrounds....

The same applies to martial arts.

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I was hoping you'd fill in the blank Page. Thanks for clarifying and adding.

since this is very much on topic, I'll cross-reference another thread here...
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...6/#Post15800519
You mentioned in that thread about people representing their Art well...you give the best image to the Matsumura Seito Art I have seen/read.
Since posting last Spring, my forum impression of this style was by (former?) members multiversed and PETER... while knowledgeable and interesting, there was something that wasn't quite right; they didn't seem to realize that the '-Jitsu' can co-exist with the '-Do' within a person, and in fact, they complement each other not cancel each other out - too much style pride even if it's justified, even if they really are some kind of 'elite' MAist, is blinding. Of course people are more complex than what someone sees on a forum, so I may very well be wrong...my point is that you seem to have a very good balance to your Art which carries over into your person and is apparent even online. There are several others who I think represent their respective arts equally as well. FWIW.

Now what I don't want is 'niceness retaliation'...that happens alot on forums. someone gives someone else a compliment and then that person never disagrees, embarrasses or challenges thought, as some kind of 'virtual loyalty' kindof thing. it's respectable, but at the same time...blech. Thats a subject for the sociologists. All I know is that I learn the most from people that can take and give honest but tactful opinion without politics or ego-stroking. There are some on here that are really good people and I'm learning. 'nuff o dat.

p.s. 'blank Page' - did anyone catch that pun?

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"Jutsu" is not "Do", but the the Bujutsu of Budo is the best of karate.

Well it's good to see that you can deduce so much about a person over the web. I'm sure that those who know me and have trained with me feel that I'm a very good person who enjoys helping the less fortunate albeit with a forthright attitude about many things.

For years the real karate-ka have had to put up with being lumped together with the common "pyjama" wearing scrubs. We've been thrown into the same catgory regardless if we are intelligent people, good ring fighters, streetfighters and true MMAs types. You see real karate (usually the Okinawan variety) which was of Okinawan lineage was a MMA at one time and some of us have kept that intact. Heck some of us could fight very well and had fought very successfully on the blacktop growing up and as adults even before being introduced to karate. So we had a better vantage point as to what and who was legit and what wasn't.

We hear these average Bruce Lee emultaing dolts from all walks of the MAs world come on forums and in mag interviews talk about what is real and what ain't, and we not only laugh heartily we friggin' guffaw. How dare they attempt to tell us what is or is not real? Conversely we hear these McDojoists explain how all karate is the same or that lineage means squat (tell Harvard U. types that crap) and again we have to point and say "how the heck do you know"? What perspective or experiential base do you have? Like most they have none so some of the real karate-ka try their best to distance themselves from that gendai crap by being brash and confrontational. Is it wrong for a real karate person to defend their position from some kushi bushi? I feel it is.

One more thing, Ed, to lump me together with Peter is ridiculous. He isn't a legit MS BB. I trained with and received my nidan from a real sensei (Ron Lindsey) and my sensei in the PI (ulysses Aquino) was also a real karate-ka AND fighter. Beyond who I trained karate with my background is in judo and boxing as well as GJJ/CJJ and that gives me a little bit better vantage point than most uni-dimensional karate-ka. If what I say is untrue my bad. If my delivery is bad but my words are true shame on the reader for overlooking the truth by being distracted by the superficial. Plenty of folks in high positions come at you with that good-ole boy attitude replete with decorum and pretty window dressing, but they will straight up lie out their teeth and never blink.

I'm no polytrickshun, I'm a real man and karate-ka. I am a healer and have "good chi" or so I've been told. If you can gather what type of person I am by reading some junk I wrote on some inane forum then you need to get into the psychic business and help Chevron find some oil using those keen telepathic powers. If you met me and trained with me you'd love me, trust me. The real deal doesn't always kiss ass or butter stuff up so that an adults feelings aren't hurt. Especially on a supposedly anonymous forum. If you don't know now you know.

BTW Page is right. Kenshinkan is Matsumura Seito -INFLUENCED karate but it ain't the real. It's about something else baby, you can guess what I'm getting at. Kise is still one of the baddest (my sensei says so all the time) but he ain't teaching his students the Sui-di anymore, bro'. That's actually a good thing in a way.

(Btw, Do you have brothers named John and Richard?)

Hope all this helps clarify my position now I fade into the ether, again....

SonOfSoken formerly Omega Point and MV...

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This very much sounds like an old fashioned Englishman talking. It kinda reminds me of a classbound viewpoint prevalent when I was a boy. This is all outdated and in any case in such a practical world of the martial arts the initiated are not easily fooled. If I see anyone flashing their credentials I am automatically cautious, but within a very short time of seeing what is happening in the Dojo I think I can tell when someone is blagging it.

Trefathell

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How to wind up a Scotsman in 1 easy sentence!!!
I personally train in a style that is relitively new founded in Japan. We do not 'pay hommage' to a past grand master or anything like that but we do use Japanese customs etc which is a big part of the training as far as I am concerned. A student from the Japanese headquarters is training with us at the moment and he is very impressed with our efforts to learn the basic sayings etc.

What you were saying about the class society has gone down a lot in the UK, but is still very much a part of our society nomatter what anyone says about a classless society. I think the point I was trying to make is that a lot of TMA practitioners do not value the quality of some of the MA out there.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but just because a style is newer and doesn't have 46 dead guys claiming it was great, does not make in inferior. IMHO

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I was wondering were you had gotten to, Bryan.

I for one have missed having you around. Not always the most popular point of view, but factual and jolting and thought provoking.

Welcome back man.

Page

PS No brothers!

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How are you Page? I hope all is well!

I should have made my brother question clearer. I had a friend in HS named John Morris who had two younger bros- Ed and Richard. I was just wondering.

I will say that the quality of discussion on TOMAs has gone down quite a bit since I was booted. It's like Philly and T.O., cut your nose off to spite your face. Another example of obstinate idiocy. That's what happens when everyday Joes and Josephinas are running things. You can cut out the creme de la creme; we will always rise to the top while mud sinks, hahaha!

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AshiharaStudent

I go with Butterfly on this.

Like I said beore "lineage" is another word for "history."

Where your techniques come from?--unless they were invented out of whole cloth.

Whom taught whom what?

How long did they study?

When they learned it?

Under what circumstances?

etc.

I'd kinda like to know if techniques my teacher was teaching were learned during 3 months of training at the local gym.
Or are the result of 20 years of dedicated training and a couple of stints on the Olympic judo team.

"Lineage" won't help make you a better fighter---will help you to understand your art.

As you say not "having 46 dead guys claiming it was great does not make it inferior."

Your correct---however arts having the "46 dead guys" does not make THEM inferior either.

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That's what happens when everyday Joes and Josephinas are running things. You can cut out the creme de la creme; we will always rise to the top while mud sinks

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My point being, even if it's true, why do some feel the need to say so and others do not?

I don't have brothers by those names. and nobody in my lineage has ever been to Texas.

In many ways I suppose I am a 'kuchi bushi'...or maybe it would be more accurate to invent a modern term 'kompuuta bushi'. since I probably spend more time reading online about stuff than I do practicing it. It wasn't always that way, but it is now. So it's safe to assume that my part-time karotty isn't up to snuff to your full-time real-deal. ok. I think there are private forums for elites like yourself. Of course if you really are an elite Karateman, then posting in a mediocre forum would make you, what? Don't get me wrong, I learn something on each of your posts and wish you did still post here. your humor ain't bad either.

on topic...about the education/MA lineage analogy.
After B.U. and Northeastern U. I went to Harvard Grad school and dropped out after the first semester before matriculating. On a resume, would it be correct for me to outright claim Harvard lineage? no, of course not. but if it helps me get the job, I'll acurately mention I did some classes there. - it wouldn't really matter though, because either you can perform the job or not...lineage wouldn't mean squat after getting the job. I've seen some community college grads run circles around us University grads.

Lineage might help get the job, but it doesn't do anything for you in order to keep the job.

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using the battlefield as a qualifier:

credible lineage
... Military

teaching serious students who have fighting spirit
... soldiers fighting for their lives.

supported by a community
... brothers in arms.

yes, that fits all criteria. plus, veterans of war have battlefield experience. Looks like we solved the 'whats the best Martial Art' question.

The Military of any country seems to have the best Martial Artists. I bet this test holds true even moreso the further back in time we consider.

The question is...which battlefield do we chose to train for? what is the nature of the battlefield in our civilian communities?

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The oldest MA reputedly comes from India or was it Africa? I think MA should technically date back to the first day someone picked up a stone and flung it at someone else instead of at a deer or something.

We can trace our lineage as far back as we want, but our time's better spent training instead of being nostalgic.

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Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Its not about tracing the martial art back to the original forms. Its about the birth of a different approach and how long its been evolving.

I personally trust a dojo whose lineage is more traditional above a lot of the "Modern" nontrad groups. I've seen the students of these Dojo's/Kwoon's/Dojang's and I've not been impressed. However, those who are more traditional, I have found to be a better group in general. (There are exceptions to both cases mind you.)

I think it goes back a lot to the Dojo-Kun... Most modern Karate's don't pay homage... I studied at a Modern Shorin-Ryu Shorin-Kan Dojo in California, no respect, the supposed Kyoshin/Leader of this group of people was at most pathetic. I wouldn't lump him in with Traditional because there was no sense of tradition in what he did. Only winning in competitions.

Yet, I find a smaller, less prominent dojo who pays homage to tradition and find humble people.

You can argue both sides of the theoretic "Lineage VS Non-Lineage" but it is all up to opinion. Those people who are more serious about their training, less concerned with Competitions and that sort of thing will almost certainly go Traditional. Those who are interested in "Extreme Martial Arts" (A nice oxy moron there for you guys to chew on) will float more towards the non-lineage lines...

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You're trying to be hurtful, but it just sounds dumb.

I wasn't talking about Military H2H training or even modern military necessarily ...I was talking about Military H2H blood-gurgling war {glub-glub} experience.
maybe it was missed, but I tried to make a distinction between which appropriate battlefields to train for nowadays for my suburban-a$$... war or self-defense. I forgot that you are living in 18th century Okinawa, so your threats may be different than from someone, lets say, shopping at a mall.

to tie this back on topic, I think looking at lineage can educate us as to what type of 'battlefield' each generation trained (and perhaps modified) the Art which was handed down.

always a pleasure, B.C. , M.V. (or is it S.O.S. now)

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"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...

Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.

1800 Okinawa, China or Japan was probably pretty rough compared to now. If a man died or was permanently disabled then that meant your family might die too. That's a huge difference in training for self-preservation vs. SD. Something to think about.

But yeah I agree with your last statement. One thing we all can't forget is- "don't fix it if it ain't broke". There is always room for individual tailor fitting and sound modifications. The great teachers will always say this. Hohan Soken learned from various teachers after he had a strong foundation in his family system as did Kano, Miyagi, Matsumura, Funakoshi, Kenwa, Chotoku Kyan, Higa Yuchoku, Oyama and so on. To modify something because you don't know what the original answers to the question were and then claim you are making things better is just dishonest. If you train with a sensei or coach or instructor and the solutions they give you for certain problems work perfectly for you then why modify?

Those guys who supposedly "modified" something for the better (when it comes to karate at least) probably didn't have the level of understanding or the proper training to address those questions in the first place. I won't mention names or styles but, trust me, they are myriad. They probably also wanted to make their imprint by being innovators of an innovation even if they were nothing of the sort. Or they just wanted clout and money...

If anyone's intent with a striking prevalent art is to make it an all out affair with full contact sparring as an emphasis then they have a problem with fooling themselves because, at this time and all times before, there is no way to test your repertoire of skills completely with an all encompassing MA that includes striking as its emphasis (real karate) as with a grappling art. To test yourself by continuously kicking your own butt and giving yourself brain and body damage is really defeating the purpose of it all. That's what folks who are perpetual journeyman or sport-billy types can't understand. It's just beyond their scope of training and understanding.

Conversely, training with little or no contact, using flashy, amorphous forms/kata and refusing to understand proper biomechanics and physics, i.o.w. fitting square pegs into round holes, will get you nowhere except hurt if you ever have to use your pseudo-fighting skills for real.

Everything, EVERYTHING has a fine median. Moderation in all things, like J.C. said, or travel the middle path like Buddha emphasized. So lineage AND style aren't everything but they are good reference points- where you came from and where you might be going.

Back to relevant training and environ. I think that guns, aside, the threats from an assailant or a host of them haven't changed with the times. The lessons of old school karate, chuan fa and aikijujutsu are very relevant to any time period. They all address the problem of self-preservation during times of less structure and more entropy.

Having said all that, I'm not being hurtful in anyway. I'm a veteran myself who dealt with all branches and I can tell you that they are no better equipped for mano-a-mano fighting than your average person, war experience or not. Now military brats, that might be a different thing altogether due to the fact you often have to fight growing up because with the constant moves (PCS') you are always the stranger who has to prove himself. But their parents? Unless they are SpecOps they aren't any tougher than the average dude and their war training/experience often does nothing but give them PTSD or slowly erode their empathy and conscience, two things you need in order to be a true warrior IMO.

I'll also say again that the ring or cage, even MMAs, doesn't prepare one any more adequately for real life confrontation than GOOD TMAs training, no matter what Dana White's S&M loving self claims!

Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip...

Dr. S.O.S. Omegakrunkenversed, PhD in Reality from F.U.!!!

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Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip.

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"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...

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Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.

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Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip.

Problem with assumed intent? Where would he get that idea, sonny? Maybe from this:

"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...

Oh I get it..... it was a joke. You weren't trying to be arrogant and pedantic. Good one sonny....

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What's up with the sonny, fool? I was being arrogant AND funny smart-a$$! Don't get it twisted!!!

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Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.

True. And if you want to go there, space is not real in the same sense. But I'm sure you already knew that. Welcome back.

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For the not reals? Word?! WORD!!!

Good to be a nuisance again, at least temporarily... Peace, fools!!!

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lol...'eddie' - my sisters are the only ones who call me that.

I've got nothing against you. I'm not even offended by your tone. BTW, I didn't see the first of your back-to-back posts, the one discribing how someone e-mailed your sensei...if thats true, it's pretty disturbing and makes me think twice of what I write on here. just seems ugly no matter how much of a$$ people think someone is.

your point about moderation makes sense. there might be hope for you yet.

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unlike before where cross-training was viewed as betrayal

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No it wasn't. take a look at Okinawa, turn of the 20th century and get back with what you find out. people didn't get into all of that secrecy 'business' just for secrecy sake. c'mon now. people keep secrets of It when they are either selling It or using It against each other.

Mark, good point....and funny.

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I'm sure that a kid who is taking "Master Jimmy Crackcorn's Eclectic Freestyle American Kenpo Karate" wouldn't even know what a legit lineage is let alone care.

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I'm sure that a kid who is taking "Master Jimmy Crackcorn's Eclectic Freestyle American Kenpo Karate" wouldn't even know what a legit lineage is let alone care.

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Oy.

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But my style is mightier than yours. We must fight to uphold the honor of our masters & see who is stronger.

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I pictured you saying that with your lip movement not matching the words. pointing and clenching your fist.