FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 37 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn, Ron_Cooley, businns
22902 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 12
cxt 7
trevek 6
JKogas 5
futsaowingchun 4
July
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
Today at 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
04/12/12 11:16 AM
Recent Posts
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
26 minutes 35 seconds ago
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
Today at 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
Today at 08:53 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
07/24/14 11:35 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Forum Stats
22902 Members
36 Forums
35564 Topics
432453 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
#203568 - 11/10/05 09:31 PM How important is lineage?
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote by fellow martial artist

Quote:

We can trace our lineage back further than any other styles that I know.




So! Does this make you feel superior? Is it relevant to your potential?
What if I took a style that I can only trace back half as far? Is it only half as good?

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#203569 - 11/10/05 10:12 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Ed's snappy answers to that stupid statement:

1. "oh yeah!? well WE can trace all of our techniques back to self-defense."

2. "Yeah, but my Granddad could still kick your Granddaddys A$$."

3. "Funny, There were no birth records prior to 1850 except for royalty."

4. "I'm sure you're right....since you only know one style."

5. "Pre-Buddha?!"

6. "Did you just fart? I'm smellin somethin."

7. "They say lineages which don't fork aren't as healthy."

8. "Where did it lead back to? An ancient organization in Jersey paid to publish that stuff?"

9. "Not only can we trace, but we can color too!"

10. "Just put the pads on and we'll see how far back this 'lineage' of yours can go."

Top
#203570 - 11/10/05 10:41 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
dogfacedboyuk1 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 116
That's gotta have come from a ninjitsu guy - they're always arguing about lineage and masters in japan and a whole heap of other [wordydurd].

I guess lineage is important if you're a ninja, their history is pretty murky at best. You might end up tracing your lineage back to someone like Ashida Kim then it's gonna make you cry a lot over all of those wasted years of your life training in fake skills.


Edited by BrianS (11/10/05 10:51 PM)

Top
#203571 - 11/10/05 10:53 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: dogfacedboyuk1]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Nope, weren't from no nunjustu guy!

He does a very good and populat style,shorinryu. His lineage goes back through master Kisay(sp?)
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#203572 - 11/10/05 11:05 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: dogfacedboyuk1]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I tried tracing my Muay Boran lineage a few months ago. Well it kinda stopped after 4 masters.

I'll list it out now. . .
5) My master, Kru Praeng
4) My master's master, can't remember his name
3) Ketr Sriyapai
2) Ketr's daddy
1) Some old dude I can't pronounce his name
0) Some warrior that served the king as bodyguard for his elephant.

Actually, I don't care for lineage, as long as the art functions as it should. What do you think people thought when they first heard of Karate in USA? Nothing. . .

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#203573 - 11/10/05 11:33 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Fusei Kise studied under Hohan Soken.

The misplaced justification for people to say such things is since Hohan Soken bypassed the 'Japanification' of his Shorin style since he moved to S. America in the 30's and returned in the 50's (just going by memory, I don't remember the exact years).
That doesn't say anything more about lineage than say Higashionna's lineage. Unless they are a bushi-class snob I suppose. What it DOES say, is that Hohan Soken's version of Karate probably had the least amount of watering-down since it wasn't really influenced by the mass-production mentality of the 30's and 40's. There were hints of evidence that suggest there was some amount of holding back on some of the teachings-in effect watering it down for public consumption, but I certainly don't know for sure.
However, SINCE the 1950's he has had good and not so good students...some were not even students but claim to have been. From what I understand and heard, Fusei Kise is one of the legit good guys....but even some of HIS students are good/bad/ugly. and so on. It happens in every Art.

To be bragging (like your guy did) that his art is decended thru a well known Master doesn't say anything about the sensei who claim to have studied thru that Master.

Find out the sensei of this guy...BuDoc might know them.

The lineage argument of this particular style is a well known argument and a source of pride....sometimes it is misplaced. The only time when it is not misplaced is when the person holding that lineage doesn't brag about it.

all this is just from what I've read and heard from various sources...it's not first-hand (except the opinions about bragging ).

Top
#203574 - 11/10/05 11:42 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I agree on this one.

Lineage tells nothing of how the teacher is. . . He may have been a student of Mas Oyama, Eyal Yanilov, BL or whoever, but is he good like the teacher? That's another question.

I think lineage is only good sometimes, just to know who he studied under, but not if he's good teacher.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#203575 - 11/10/05 11:56 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Taison]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

0) Some warrior that served the king as bodyguard for his elephant.




Well, I'm impressed.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

Top
#203576 - 11/11/05 12:02 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I respect his sensei,Don......6th dan,I'm drawing a blank. I'll get back to you on this tomorrow.
The guy I'm referring to is "sandan,been training ten years,knows 18 kata and all the weapons,and is completely saturated with knowledge." All his quotes. Also "cagefighters don't know what they're doing,I train to stay on my feet,I really don't think they can take me down.One guy tried it with me and I just fell on him." I said,well,you went down didn't you? (he is 6' and weighs over 300lbs)
Ya know,writing all of this down makes it seem REAL funny!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#203577 - 11/11/05 12:43 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
A long time ago when I started GoJuRyu. Back then it seemed that all of the M arts classes bragged and stuck firmly to their old masters explinations of their style.

After 6 years I decided to try some other styles while still doing GoJu atleast once a week.
Turned out that my GoJu got a lot better when I had some different additudes and ladditudes to consider.

Now I have put several years into 4 different styles and every one just added to my favorite - GoJu.
If I weren't so old I would add Brazilian Jujutsu.

I believe variety is the spice needed for all of life including Martial arts.

As someone else mentioned - it doesn't matter if your teacher learned from an age old master if he didn't really get it himself or doesn't know how to spread his knowledge to others.

Top
#203578 - 11/11/05 05:40 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Diga]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:

As someone else mentioned - it doesn't matter if your teacher learned from an age old master if he didn't really get it himself or doesn't know how to spread his knowledge to others.




What makes everyone think that because some guy invented a style 100's of years ago, that it is going to be any better than somthing invented by someone today? Surely since then, things have advanced and evolved in the world of MA.

Just a thought
_________________________
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

Top
#203579 - 11/11/05 07:47 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Ed is correct about the Hohan Soken lineage, but I would like to add a little if I may.

Sensei Soken went to Argentina in 1928 and returned to Okinawa in 1952. In Argentina he had several students. One of them happens to be my teacher, Dr. Henry Inoue(Born to Okinawan parents in Argentina, using an English 1st name for teaching medicine in the US). Dr. Inoue was a long time student of Soken both in Argentina(not the only one,many are still there) and Okinawa.

*** It is very important to note that Sensei Soken ALWAYS maintained that Matsumura Seito WAS NOT the only true/legitimate Shorin Ryu. It is merely his Grandfathers style passed in the family*****

Sensei Fusei Kise is probably the best known Matsumura Seito practioner. He has a background in Shorinji Ryu and Matsumura Seito. While he is arguably one of the finest Seito practioners, It is important to note that Kenshin Kan(His current teaching) is not Matsumura Seito.

Sensei Kise is an excellent practioner and teacher, and one of the toughest men I have ever known, but he has not taught O'Sensei Sokens art for many,many years.

Again Ed is correct in saying that since the 1950's (having returned to Okinawa) Sensei Soken has had some good and some bad students. And the in vogue trend is to have claimed to have trained with Sensei Soken. Matsumura Seito has become quite fashionable over the last few years.

I'll go on record here at FA. I was 10 years old living in the Mid-west in the US when O'Sensei Soken died. There it is. If in a few years I become a 10th dan Soke and claim to be the heir to MSSR(Given the right by O'Sensei Soken)a good research hound like Ed can lump me in with Frank Dux and Ashida Kim

So here is the long and short of it, and kinda trying to get back on track. Sensei Soken has trained some less than credible characters(for as great as he was, he too was capable of being duped). Some truly remarkable Martial Artists were also trained by Soken. They took his influence and have done their own thing(nothing wrong with that). And men in women who have trained in the Bushi Matsumura>>>Hohan Soken lineage have been good and bad and produced good and bad.

Am I proud to be able to trace my lineage through Bushi Matsumura and farther? Of course I am. I would be equally proud to trace my lineage through Miyagi,Higaoshionna, Ru Ru Ko, or any of a number of others.

Rememberin all the while that my lineage is not the only one that has had a dramatic and positive effect on the history and future of Okinawan martial arts.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Top
#203580 - 11/11/05 07:50 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Ashihara, therein lies the importance of lineage. Does "lineage" mean so bound by tradition that the style has lost most of its effectiveness, or does lineage mean the link to the past that says this is how long our style has had to grow. Lineage isn't what defines a style or art, or the only thing that gives it value. Lineage is what tells you where the art you study came from.

Top
#203581 - 11/11/05 10:23 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BuDoc]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I was hoping you'd fill in the blank Page. Thanks for clarifying and adding.

since this is very much on topic, I'll cross-reference another thread here...
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...6/#Post15800519
You mentioned in that thread about people representing their Art well...you give the best image to the Matsumura Seito Art I have seen/read.
Since posting last Spring, my forum impression of this style was by (former?) members multiversed and PETER... while knowledgeable and interesting, there was something that wasn't quite right; they didn't seem to realize that the '-Jitsu' can co-exist with the '-Do' within a person, and in fact, they complement each other not cancel each other out - too much style pride even if it's justified, even if they really are some kind of 'elite' MAist, is blinding. Of course people are more complex than what someone sees on a forum, so I may very well be wrong...my point is that you seem to have a very good balance to your Art which carries over into your person and is apparent even online. There are several others who I think represent their respective arts equally as well. FWIW.

Now what I don't want is 'niceness retaliation'...that happens alot on forums. someone gives someone else a compliment and then that person never disagrees, embarrasses or challenges thought, as some kind of 'virtual loyalty' kindof thing. it's respectable, but at the same time...blech. Thats a subject for the sociologists. All I know is that I learn the most from people that can take and give honest but tactful opinion without politics or ego-stroking. There are some on here that are really good people and I'm learning. 'nuff o dat.

p.s. 'blank Page' - did anyone catch that pun?

Top
#203582 - 11/11/05 12:16 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Not sure just where yu are comming from. I believe most of us here are agreeing that lineage doesn't mean much these days.
It is good to know where your basic style came from but these days MAs have evolved and sticking to one line is not what wins competitions.
Don't get me wrong though - Almost any of the MA styles are good for you. Most people are not in it for beating people up. Training is good for you in more ways than that.

Top
#203583 - 11/11/05 01:00 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Diga]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Lineage is import in understanding the art I suppose.
If you don't know your rot, how can you place yourself in the entire picture?

Still working on learning my style's philosophy though.

Top
#203584 - 11/11/05 04:17 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ives]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
About those who could careless about lineage,I've often wandered if they themselves have something to hide,As it's the true lineage that seperates a real martial artist or organization frome a fake one.

I Remain Isshintyukid4life.
_________________________
http://www.hotforwords.com

Top
#203585 - 11/11/05 04:20 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ives]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

If you don't know your rot, how can you place yourself in the entire picture?



exactly, and Matt's biscuits might have been permenantly orphaned if he didn't know his rot.

Top
#203586 - 11/11/05 05:23 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
*kicks Matt's biscuits out of the karate forum*

OK! His sensei's name is Don Foster,a small statured guy who is very nice,courteous,and humble,but I can tell he's tough. I've met with him a couple of times at their school. They do ALOT of weapons forms!

I couldn't help but feel pressured to join his schol as he asked several times and gave me the details. The problem was that was not the purpose for my visit,so I haven't gone back. The price was very good,but I was their just to share ideas,not to join their school. I didn't get to do much talking though.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#203587 - 11/12/05 01:09 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ives]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
That is the reason I added the " Don't get me wrong " statement.

Top
#203588 - 11/12/05 01:46 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I really don't know much of my lineage. My sensei's teacher died in a car accident at the age of 42. I never met the man but I do know his first name and that's about it. I don't think it effects my skills any at all.

Top
#203589 - 11/12/05 12:42 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Diga]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
I think the point is not about how far back you can trace your lineage, but that you pay respect to those who came before you...

and about the MA from a hundred years ago comment. See...

If someone invents a martial art now, they can do so rather well. The problem is, one hundreds/two hundred, however long ago someone did just that. Except they've had years of refinement and practice... These older more traditional lineages are testimonies to their art because on the majority, the arts are dynamic, not static as some would claim. Its not about only doing the Kata that was originally passed down, but keeping the spirit.

If a martial art does not question and strive for furthering its art. It is dead, a living thing is constantly changing... I learned this in Shito-Ryu (Mabuni Lineage, Kenzo Mabuni just died this year, he will be missed.) because the arts I had practiced before had been static and when I came to Shito ryu, I felt the life in the art itself.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

Top
#203590 - 11/12/05 01:44 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
NEAS Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 168
Quote:

Fusei Kise studied under Hohan Soken.

The misplaced justification for people to say such things is since Hohan Soken bypassed the 'Japanification' of his Shorin style since he moved to S. America in the 30's and returned in the 50's (just going by memory, I don't remember the exact years).
That doesn't say anything more about lineage than say Higashionna's lineage. Unless they are a bushi-class snob I suppose. What it DOES say, is that Hohan Soken's version of Karate probably had the least amount of watering-down since it wasn't really influenced by the mass-production mentality of the 30's and 40's. There were hints of evidence that suggest there was some amount of holding back on some of the teachings-in effect watering it down for public consumption, but I certainly don't know for sure.
However, SINCE the 1950's he has had good and not so good students...some were not even students but claim to have been. From what I understand and heard, Fusei Kise is one of the legit good guys....but even some of HIS students are good/bad/ugly. and so on. It happens in every Art.




Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
To be bragging (like your guy did) that his art is decended thru a well known Master doesn't say anything about the sensei who claim to have studied thru that Master.

Find out the sensei of this guy...BuDoc might know them.

The lineage argument of this particular style is a well known argument and a source of pride....sometimes it is misplaced. The only time when it is not misplaced is when the person holding that lineage doesn't brag about it.

all this is just from what I've read and heard from various sources...it's not first-hand (except the opinions about bragging ).

moderator edit to fix quote.You have to put your response in after the quote


Edited by BrianS (11/12/05 04:19 PM)

Top
#203591 - 11/12/05 03:06 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: NEAS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
almost missed your hidden message...you aren't a ninja are you?
Quote:

Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?




Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
If you mean blind leading the blind, then yes, sometimes it happens.
If you mean the fox leading the sheep, again, sometimes yes.

does it affect you one way or another? Because it doesn't bother me to know that your art is superior.

Top
#203592 - 11/12/05 04:06 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

almost missed your hidden message...you aren't a ninja are you?
Quote:

Hi ,,,,,This is where I get a bit confused. Karate was watered down in the 30 s 40 s. OK ...I trained in trad Karate. I now train myself in what works for me in a cage fight scenario or a street fight/self defence etc.Dont get me wrong I am always looking and analising fighting techniques and if I think they would work then I add them to my constant practice. So why do people keep training in methods that wont or dont work because they were watered down or had never been tested ?
Is this the sheep leading the sheep?




Is this the sheep leading the sheep?
If you mean blind leading the blind, then yes, sometimes it happens.
If you mean the fox leading the sheep, again, sometimes yes.

does it affect you one way or another? Because it doesn't bother me to know that your art is superior.




I think the actual hidden message has something to do with "analising" and "sheep". I could be wrong though

Top
#203593 - 11/13/05 10:00 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Taison]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

0) Some warrior that served the king as bodyguard for his elephant.





And elephants can trace their lineage all the way to the mammoths; about how many million years?

Seriously, I understand that when the King rides his war elephants to war, he has 4 warriors each guarding one of the elephant's legs which were the first targets of the enemies.

So that master must have being something to be given such a big job.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#203594 - 11/13/05 02:35 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
How important is lineage?

It's of little value on the practice floor, there a more than competent instructor and hard work are the key.

But lineage is important in one very small way. Not that it goes back far, but that an instructor can share a lineage that holds up, such as who their instructor was, and their instructors instructor.

All time in the arts tells us, nobody is worth spending time with if you find out they are incapable of telling the truth about anything. You're better off studying finger painting than training with anyone, no matter how impressive they are, if they can't share the truth.

Past the the most important lineage is whether an instructor can share something that the ages will revere in the future.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#203595 - 11/14/05 04:11 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Taison]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I agree on this one.

Lineage tells nothing of how the teacher is. . . He may have been a student of Mas Oyama, Eyal Yanilov, BL or whoever, but is he good like the teacher? That's another question.

I think lineage is only good sometimes, just to know who he studied under, but not if he's good teacher.

-Taison out




Damn straight. I also agree with Victor. Your immediate teacher and how you train is more important. I am sure there are may bad teachers and practitioners with excellent lineage, and many lineage poor teachers who made what they could out of nothing...

Top
#203596 - 11/14/05 08:23 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Victor Smith]
Trefathell Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 97
Quote:

How important is lineage?

It's of little value on the practice floor, there a more than competent instructor and hard work are the key.

But lineage is important in one very small way. Not that it goes back far, but that an instructor can share a lineage that holds up, such as who their instructor was, and their instructors instructor.

All time in the arts tells us, nobody is worth spending time with if you find out they are incapable of telling the truth about anything. You're better off studying finger painting than training with anyone, no matter how impressive they are, if they can't share the truth.

Past the the most important lineage is whether an instructor can share something that the ages will revere in the future.




Well said Victor!
There is also another side to this in that those with a lineage get lumped in with the cowboys and feel a need to emphasize their differences in a way that the general public may be able to understand. Whether that happens in reality is another issue.

Someone said that the more a line branches off the stronger it gets!! From my experience within my own system the more a line branches off the more diluted and confused it gets. I accept it may be different from other people's perspective but I can only talk about what I know. I suppose it comes down to; if the original system had weaknesses that were never properly resolved, or if someone down the line/age passed it on badly or in an incomplete way.

Trefathell

Top
#203597 - 11/14/05 08:54 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Trefathell]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Lineage to me does not mean that much. As far as I'm concerned, things improve with time and when people talk about their lineage it is just like these people who talk about the posh school they went to at a job interview (jobs for the boys).
It does not mean that they are smarter or a better choice for the job it just means that they are using it to try and get an advantage. In the real world this does not hold much weight as there are always going to be people better than you from different backgrounds....

The same applies to martial arts.
_________________________
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

Top
#203598 - 11/14/05 09:40 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

Lineage to me does not mean that much. As far as I'm concerned, things improve with time and when people talk about their lineage it is just like these people who talk about the posh school they went to at a job interview (jobs for the boys).
It does not mean that they are smarter or a better choice for the job it just means that they are using it to try and get an advantage. In the real world this does not hold much weight as there are always going to be people better than you from different backgrounds....

The same applies to martial arts.





See, I can't agree with this. The main reason is that a few very poorly trained and misguided martial artists may turn their lineage from a respectful nod to those who came before them... To a pedigree. That is wrong, however...

I agree that arts change and grow over time, I would say that is the reason I think lineage is important. Lineage isn't saying "My art hasn't changed since (blank)" Its saying how long it has been practiced, how long it has been experimented with, changed and brought to life. Who would you trust to know more about self defense...

A person who just created the art, or someone whose building upon 7 generations of knowledge? Not just parroting those who came before them mind you, but actually building and growing with it.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

Top
#203599 - 11/14/05 09:49 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
As a newbie, I have asked what lineage is and the discussion seems to devolve into art 'history' that basically is used to bolster some kind of MA superiority or integrity.

I consider lineage to be the same as one's last name. How important is your last name to you? What does it mean? If you move far away what are you bringing with you? If you marry, and 'lose' your name (kinda like switching styles) do you give anything up? It's about intangibles.

Top
#203600 - 11/14/05 11:11 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: harlan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
One importance of lineage is understanding how the techniques/strategies in the kata were used by the old masters. For instance the yoi/ready stance with the hands in fists by the waist was the stance used by the bodyguards of the ryukuan kings/regents when standing behind them. It would be impractical to stand in a fighting stance with hands up when walking down the street or at a formal function. From this stance a method of leaping into action suddenly was developed, trained, and passed on in the kata. Some styles of karate dismiss this stance as "useless" and discard it while others don't understand its purpose and misuse it. Lineage is not only history of founders, but of kata and understanding its useage. Lineage will also allow people to understand what changes where made to their art and why which will further allow people to understand what they do and why they do it.

Top
#203601 - 11/14/05 11:38 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: medulanet]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
The oldest MA reputedly comes from India or was it Africa? I think MA should technically date back to the first day someone picked up a stone and flung it at someone else instead of at a deer or something.

We can trace our lineage as far back as we want, but our time's better spent training instead of being nostalgic.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#203602 - 11/14/05 11:51 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Leo_E_49]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

The oldest MA reputedly comes from India or was it Africa? I think MA should technically date back to the first day someone picked up a stone and flung it at someone else instead of at a deer or something.

We can trace our lineage as far back as we want, but our time's better spent training instead of being nostalgic.




Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Its not about tracing the martial art back to the original forms. Its about the birth of a different approach and how long its been evolving.

I personally trust a dojo whose lineage is more traditional above a lot of the "Modern" nontrad groups. I've seen the students of these Dojo's/Kwoon's/Dojang's and I've not been impressed. However, those who are more traditional, I have found to be a better group in general. (There are exceptions to both cases mind you.)

I think it goes back a lot to the Dojo-Kun... Most modern Karate's don't pay homage... I studied at a Modern Shorin-Ryu Shorin-Kan Dojo in California, no respect, the supposed Kyoshin/Leader of this group of people was at most pathetic. I wouldn't lump him in with Traditional because there was no sense of tradition in what he did. Only winning in competitions.

Yet, I find a smaller, less prominent dojo who pays homage to tradition and find humble people.

You can argue both sides of the theoretic "Lineage VS Non-Lineage" but it is all up to opinion. Those people who are more serious about their training, less concerned with Competitions and that sort of thing will almost certainly go Traditional. Those who are interested in "Extreme Martial Arts" (A nice oxy moron there for you guys to chew on) will float more towards the non-lineage lines...
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

Top
#203603 - 11/14/05 11:55 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: phoenixsflame]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Phoenix.
Nice explination.

Top
#203604 - 11/14/05 11:56 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
It's about faith...a committment. About being given something, and faithfully passing it along in the same spirit it was given.

Top
#203605 - 11/14/05 01:47 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: harlan]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I will only speak for for Okinawan Karate.

In the old times you did not get to walk into a one of many dojos and sign up to train.

If you wanted to train you had to seek out an instructor. How do you do this? By the instructors reputation. Who has he trained, who trained him/her.

Then you had to be accepted. Who have you trained with before. Who trained them.

In both cases it is a question of lineage.

All things being equal , do you want to train BJJ(an example of a relatively short,modern lineage) with a Gracie, or the American/European/Asian(see it doesn't matter) student of a Machado?

I'm guessing that in your research, and all other things being equal you'll want to train with a Gracie. Closer to the root.

Now we know in the real world that things are never equal. There are good and bad dojos, good and bad instructors etc. etc. But when things are equal, or you just don't know, a long and succesful lineage helps tip the scale.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Top
#203606 - 11/14/05 03:14 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
Trefathell Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 97
Quote:

Lineage to me does not mean that much. As far as I'm concerned, things improve with time and when people talk about their lineage it is just like these people who talk about the posh school they went to at a job interview (jobs for the boys).
It does not mean that they are smarter or a better choice for the job it just means that they are using it to try and get an advantage. In the real world this does not hold much weight as there are always going to be people better than you from different backgrounds....

The same applies to martial arts.




This very much sounds like an old fashioned Englishman talking. It kinda reminds me of a classbound viewpoint prevalent when I was a boy. This is all outdated and in any case in such a practical world of the martial arts the initiated are not easily fooled. If I see anyone flashing their credentials I am automatically cautious, but within a very short time of seeing what is happening in the Dojo I think I can tell when someone is blagging it.

Trefathell

Top
#203607 - 11/14/05 04:40 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

I was hoping you'd fill in the blank Page. Thanks for clarifying and adding.

since this is very much on topic, I'll cross-reference another thread here...
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...6/#Post15800519
You mentioned in that thread about people representing their Art well...you give the best image to the Matsumura Seito Art I have seen/read.
Since posting last Spring, my forum impression of this style was by (former?) members multiversed and PETER... while knowledgeable and interesting, there was something that wasn't quite right; they didn't seem to realize that the '-Jitsu' can co-exist with the '-Do' within a person, and in fact, they complement each other not cancel each other out - too much style pride even if it's justified, even if they really are some kind of 'elite' MAist, is blinding. Of course people are more complex than what someone sees on a forum, so I may very well be wrong...my point is that you seem to have a very good balance to your Art which carries over into your person and is apparent even online. There are several others who I think represent their respective arts equally as well. FWIW.

Now what I don't want is 'niceness retaliation'...that happens alot on forums. someone gives someone else a compliment and then that person never disagrees, embarrasses or challenges thought, as some kind of 'virtual loyalty' kindof thing. it's respectable, but at the same time...blech. Thats a subject for the sociologists. All I know is that I learn the most from people that can take and give honest but tactful opinion without politics or ego-stroking. There are some on here that are really good people and I'm learning. 'nuff o dat.

p.s. 'blank Page' - did anyone catch that pun?




"Jutsu" is not "Do", but the the Bujutsu of Budo is the best of karate.

Well it's good to see that you can deduce so much about a person over the web. I'm sure that those who know me and have trained with me feel that I'm a very good person who enjoys helping the less fortunate albeit with a forthright attitude about many things.

For years the real karate-ka have had to put up with being lumped together with the common "pyjama" wearing scrubs. We've been thrown into the same catgory regardless if we are intelligent people, good ring fighters, streetfighters and true MMAs types. You see real karate (usually the Okinawan variety) which was of Okinawan lineage was a MMA at one time and some of us have kept that intact. Heck some of us could fight very well and had fought very successfully on the blacktop growing up and as adults even before being introduced to karate. So we had a better vantage point as to what and who was legit and what wasn't.

We hear these average Bruce Lee emultaing dolts from all walks of the MAs world come on forums and in mag interviews talk about what is real and what ain't, and we not only laugh heartily we friggin' guffaw. How dare they attempt to tell us what is or is not real? Conversely we hear these McDojoists explain how all karate is the same or that lineage means squat (tell Harvard U. types that crap) and again we have to point and say "how the heck do you know"? What perspective or experiential base do you have? Like most they have none so some of the real karate-ka try their best to distance themselves from that gendai crap by being brash and confrontational. Is it wrong for a real karate person to defend their position from some kushi bushi? I feel it is.

One more thing, Ed, to lump me together with Peter is ridiculous. He isn't a legit MS BB. I trained with and received my nidan from a real sensei (Ron Lindsey) and my sensei in the PI (ulysses Aquino) was also a real karate-ka AND fighter. Beyond who I trained karate with my background is in judo and boxing as well as GJJ/CJJ and that gives me a little bit better vantage point than most uni-dimensional karate-ka. If what I say is untrue my bad. If my delivery is bad but my words are true shame on the reader for overlooking the truth by being distracted by the superficial. Plenty of folks in high positions come at you with that good-ole boy attitude replete with decorum and pretty window dressing, but they will straight up lie out their teeth and never blink.

I'm no polytrickshun, I'm a real man and karate-ka. I am a healer and have "good chi" or so I've been told. If you can gather what type of person I am by reading some junk I wrote on some inane forum then you need to get into the psychic business and help Chevron find some oil using those keen telepathic powers. If you met me and trained with me you'd love me, trust me. The real deal doesn't always kiss ass or butter stuff up so that an adults feelings aren't hurt. Especially on a supposedly anonymous forum. If you don't know now you know.

BTW Page is right. Kenshinkan is Matsumura Seito -INFLUENCED karate but it ain't the real. It's about something else baby, you can guess what I'm getting at. Kise is still one of the baddest (my sensei says so all the time) but he ain't teaching his students the Sui-di anymore, bro'. That's actually a good thing in a way.

(Btw, Do you have brothers named John and Richard?)

Hope all this helps clarify my position now I fade into the ether, again....

SonOfSoken formerly Omega Point and MV...

Top
#203608 - 11/14/05 05:30 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Trefathell]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:



This very much sounds like an old fashioned Englishman talking. It kinda reminds me of a classbound viewpoint prevalent when I was a boy. This is all outdated and in any case in such a practical world of the martial arts the initiated are not easily fooled. If I see anyone flashing their credentials I am automatically cautious, but within a very short time of seeing what is happening in the Dojo I think I can tell when someone is blagging it.

Trefathell




How to wind up a Scotsman in 1 easy sentence!!!
I personally train in a style that is relitively new founded in Japan. We do not 'pay hommage' to a past grand master or anything like that but we do use Japanese customs etc which is a big part of the training as far as I am concerned. A student from the Japanese headquarters is training with us at the moment and he is very impressed with our efforts to learn the basic sayings etc.

What you were saying about the class society has gone down a lot in the UK, but is still very much a part of our society nomatter what anyone says about a classless society. I think the point I was trying to make is that a lot of TMA practitioners do not value the quality of some of the MA out there.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but just because a style is newer and doesn't have 46 dead guys claiming it was great, does not make in inferior. IMHO
_________________________
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

Top
#203609 - 11/14/05 06:38 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
But Ashihara student,

Despite not activeley acknowledging lineage...you can still derive it.

Funakoshi to Oyama Mas....Yamuguchi's Goju to So to Oyama Mas.

Oyama Mas to Ashihara...to your instructor. Whether noted or not, lineage is still there through traceable records acknowledging where instruction came from.

-B

Top
#203610 - 11/14/05 07:18 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
AshiharaStudent

I go with Butterfly on this.

Like I said beore "lineage" is another word for "history."

Where your techniques come from?--unless they were invented out of whole cloth.

Whom taught whom what?

How long did they study?

When they learned it?

Under what circumstances?

etc.

I'd kinda like to know if techniques my teacher was teaching were learned during 3 months of training at the local gym.
Or are the result of 20 years of dedicated training and a couple of stints on the Olympic judo team.

"Lineage" won't help make you a better fighter---will help you to understand your art.

As you say not "having 46 dead guys claiming it was great does not make it inferior."

Your correct---however arts having the "46 dead guys" does not make THEM inferior either.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#203611 - 11/14/05 11:04 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I was wondering were you had gotten to, Bryan.

I for one have missed having you around. Not always the most popular point of view, but factual and jolting and thought provoking.

Welcome back man.

Page

PS No brothers!
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Top
#203612 - 11/15/05 12:01 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BuDoc]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

I was wondering were you had gotten to, Bryan.

I for one have missed having you around. Not always the most popular point of view, but factual and jolting and thought provoking.

Welcome back man.

Page

PS No brothers!




How are you Page? I hope all is well!

I should have made my brother question clearer. I had a friend in HS named John Morris who had two younger bros- Ed and Richard. I was just wondering.

I will say that the quality of discussion on TOMAs has gone down quite a bit since I was booted. It's like Philly and T.O., cut your nose off to spite your face. Another example of obstinate idiocy. That's what happens when everyday Joes and Josephinas are running things. You can cut out the creme de la creme; we will always rise to the top while mud sinks, hahaha!

Top
#203613 - 11/15/05 12:23 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
hey bryan,
What am I chopped liver here? No hi, how ya doin' oldman?
Sheesh whats a guy gotta to around here to get some respect, practice real karate or somethin!!!

Ironicly my brother's name is Morris.

Top
#203614 - 11/15/05 08:37 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: cxt]
AshiharaStudent Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Quote:

AshiharaStudent

I go with Butterfly on this.

Like I said beore "lineage" is another word for "history."

Where your techniques come from?--unless they were invented out of whole cloth.

Whom taught whom what?

How long did they study?

When they learned it?

Under what circumstances?

etc.

I'd kinda like to know if techniques my teacher was teaching were learned during 3 months of training at the local gym.
Or are the result of 20 years of dedicated training and a couple of stints on the Olympic judo team.

"Lineage" won't help make you a better fighter---will help you to understand your art.

As you say not "having 46 dead guys claiming it was great does not make it inferior."

Your correct---however arts having the "46 dead guys" does not make THEM inferior either.




I think I get what you mean.... Someone who starts their own style no doubt got their influences from training in another style(s) for many years and that means that this is part of the lineage.
_________________________
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

Top
#203615 - 11/15/05 08:38 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Your points are taken, Bryan. I'm glad I was wrong about the assumptions I made, thanks for speaking up.
(lol 'SonOfSoken'...nice)
still, sooner or later, some hint of what I was guessing about inevitably shines thru in a sentance here and there.
Quote:

That's what happens when everyday Joes and Josephinas are running things. You can cut out the creme de la creme; we will always rise to the top while mud sinks


My point being, even if it's true, why do some feel the need to say so and others do not?

I don't have brothers by those names. and nobody in my lineage has ever been to Texas.

In many ways I suppose I am a 'kuchi bushi'...or maybe it would be more accurate to invent a modern term 'kompuuta bushi'. since I probably spend more time reading online about stuff than I do practicing it. It wasn't always that way, but it is now. So it's safe to assume that my part-time karotty isn't up to snuff to your full-time real-deal. ok. I think there are private forums for elites like yourself. Of course if you really are an elite Karateman, then posting in a mediocre forum would make you, what? Don't get me wrong, I learn something on each of your posts and wish you did still post here. your humor ain't bad either.

on topic...about the education/MA lineage analogy.
After B.U. and Northeastern U. I went to Harvard Grad school and dropped out after the first semester before matriculating. On a resume, would it be correct for me to outright claim Harvard lineage? no, of course not. but if it helps me get the job, I'll acurately mention I did some classes there. - it wouldn't really matter though, because either you can perform the job or not...lineage wouldn't mean squat after getting the job. I've seen some community college grads run circles around us University grads.

Lineage might help get the job, but it doesn't do anything for you in order to keep the job.

Top
#203616 - 11/15/05 08:55 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Good analogy, Ed. So where does that analogy leave me, the MA from UC Berkely to your PhD from an Ivy league school? Seriously, it works quite well. Considering some of the people running this country, (and anyone can insert who they want into that quote), I see exactly what you mean. Alot of the people who have degrees from Harvard, Princeton, or Yale are acting like complete morons, whereas the guys from the state run colleges are running their much smaller enterprises far more efficiently and profitably.

Maybe that's why you didn't make it at Harvard, you're just too smart for them, Ed

Top
#203617 - 11/15/05 09:11 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
This analogy of lineage and institutional education/colleges is representative of MA lineage. Big name college means you pay big bucks, and if you get through it you get the BB/degree. That whole equation of time spent and money spent can be proven with something in the hand.

But Harvard, believe it or not, has had some crappy teachers. And many graduates don't get jobs in their field. So, you've got the paper, and by inference, acquired something intangible (legitimacy, quality, worth, whatever) in trade for an investment. But it doesn't make you smart, a better person, or even guarantee 'product control'. For example, I knew an accountant who graduated top of his class from Notre Dame, was scooped up to work in 'the Gold Building' at a big name corporation, wooed with cars and apartments, and he was good at what he did. One small problem. He was an A$$ who started every sentence with 'I', with the ethics of a goat. So, by this I should infer that Notre Dame produces very good accountants but very corrupt people?

In this case, I think that the lineage was more than the degree...and that he never got it.


Edited by harlan (11/15/05 09:28 AM)

Top
#203618 - 11/15/05 09:29 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
never even came close to a PhD...I didn't have the family lineage to go that far. seriously, I dropped out because I was absolutely broke and we were expecting a baby.
No money from mommy and daddy and no hiring a nanny...you know, no family lineage that traced back to the bank. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. (and I can tell you all of the different color poops my kids went thru. lol)
Same with the dojo I was exposed to growing up. I wouldn't wish that it had been any different in exchange for a 'more direct lineage'. also, I wouldn't have wanted to grow up learning how to solve conflict with only my fists. I talked, joked and body gestured my way out of more situations than I can remember...which one of those saved my life? Hard to say, if any, but I know it didn't have anything to do with lineage.

Top
#203619 - 11/15/05 10:24 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Sheesh, all this talk about sheepskins makes my diploma for Rock Island High sound kind of, well... skimpy.

Top
#203620 - 11/15/05 10:34 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: oldman]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Oldman, I don't actually have a college degree, let alone one from Cal Berkely. I was using the analogy given by Ed, based on what styles he's studied compared to what I've studied.

On a personal note, as much as I want to study an art with far more (and much clearer) lineage, I do appreciate what I have gained from AKK. The knowledge I have gained there will serve me in any art I study, after boot camp of course.

Top
#203621 - 11/15/05 10:50 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
I think the posts I have read in this thread have not seen the big picture. The 46 dead guys comment convinced me of this. Fact is, how do you know your art will work if it has never been used except in sport? The arts that have defeated people on the battle field have lasted because they work against others who are trying to take thier lives. Most have never faced this. I have studied for a short time and been in a lot of Dojo's that claim to teach the "best" but alsa they only teach crap. IMHO!
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#203622 - 11/15/05 11:25 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Hi Paul,
Having battlefield experience is more important than lineage? I agree. Although, are you saying the soldiers having to often resort to H2H combat in the pacific islands during WWII were more effective fighters since they had much more proven (meaning if they stayed alive) battlefield experience than the likes of Okinawan masters who perhaps wisely chose not to fight at all in the war at the time?

just wondering what definition of battlefield is being used here.
Thank-you,
-Ed

Top
#203623 - 11/15/05 12:37 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
When you build a house, which is more important...
> the framer?
> the plumber?
> the electrician?
> the roofer?

The point is that they're all important. This also translates to MA: w/o a good teacher from credible lineage, teaching serious students who have fighting spirit, supported by a community (aka group that promotes the art), the art suffers. Take away any one of these "legs" & you have degredation regardless of if you can trace your instructors back to Bushi Matsumura or not.

owari

Top
#203624 - 11/15/05 01:01 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: hedkikr]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
using the battlefield as a qualifier:

credible lineage
... Military

teaching serious students who have fighting spirit
... soldiers fighting for their lives.

supported by a community
... brothers in arms.

yes, that fits all criteria. plus, veterans of war have battlefield experience. Looks like we solved the 'whats the best Martial Art' question.

The Military of any country seems to have the best Martial Artists. I bet this test holds true even moreso the further back in time we consider.

The question is...which battlefield do we chose to train for? what is the nature of the battlefield in our civilian communities?

Top
#203625 - 11/15/05 07:47 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Well I never said that I wasn't Joe Normal when it came to many things, but I think my MAs training is on par with other decent martial artists. If I do post on these silly forums I must have some kinda' normalcy to me. I'm not all that now. I'm nowhere near a Kise, Oyama, Nakamura, Miyagi or Lindsey. I'm more comparable to a McDojoist and armchair Bruce to tell you the truth. Somewhere between bRuce Lee and Bruce Willis, or something to that effect. I just like to stir the pot and give people something to chew on if you knowwhatImean.

Actually my sensei thinks I have some kind of a problem when it comes to posting on these things. He would rather I never talked to any of you cats and just keep my trap shut ["SECRETS- SHHH!!!";)]. I mean what the heck can I prove online anyway? This is actually the first time I've posted on any of these sites in months.

I actually received a verbal reprimand from my teacher. I guess some pansy-arses feel like my words ring too true or whatever so they went tattle-tail on me and kept telling my instructor (via email) what a horrible job he was doing teaching me "the way" and they interpreted my words as his somehow. GENIUSES fo' sheez'!

So I was threatened with permanent ousture from my instructor's organization if I couldn't shut it. I just stopped training to fix it all. I don't have time right now to train anyway. My bro' needs surgery so we decided to take a hiatus, maybe forever. So whatever. Little cry baby web-warrior b-tches, wann-be tough guys! What punks!!! Regardless I forgot more karate in my 6 years of training under Lindsey than many will learn in a lifetime of study. I'm cool with where I'm at.

Oh and the Harvard analogy was weak, but pertinent. Don't get me wrong. The actual classroom standards for a school like Harvard are really very easy once you get in (depending on major). The requirements and rigors involved at many state schools and small colleges are often tougher. Still even at a state school you know what their accreditation is. It isn't some mentally challenged guy telling you "you're gonna get some good learnin' now".

Btw all karate that has Shuri Te kata in it is from Matsumura's lineage (Matsumura Ha). That includes Kyokushinkai and its offshoots even if THEY don't want to claim it.

So here's a hint, Ed, at what kind of person I am; Heiho Jutsu. It's all about creating an image I want folks to see, but it ain't necessarily really me. So let's not assume.

HI OLDMAN YOU NOT SO OLD LOOKING, YET VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE TRUE-TO-LIFE, REAL KOREAN KARATE-KA!!! You're one of the few guys on any of these forums who is not average in any way. Keep teaching them the right way. Your bunkai has always been first rate! God bless you!!!

Pax Loochoo

Top
#203626 - 11/15/05 07:49 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

using the battlefield as a qualifier:

credible lineage
... Military

teaching serious students who have fighting spirit
... soldiers fighting for their lives.

supported by a community
... brothers in arms.

yes, that fits all criteria. plus, veterans of war have battlefield experience. Looks like we solved the 'whats the best Martial Art' question.

The Military of any country seems to have the best Martial Artists. I bet this test holds true even moreso the further back in time we consider.

The question is...which battlefield do we chose to train for? what is the nature of the battlefield in our civilian communities?




I was in the military and most of those guys are just very normal people with advanced technology and mad numbers. They roll deep, that's all. H2H is a joke, even SCARs, so they ain't shite. Bye...

Top
#203627 - 11/15/05 09:18 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
You're trying to be hurtful, but it just sounds dumb.

I wasn't talking about Military H2H training or even modern military necessarily ...I was talking about Military H2H blood-gurgling war {glub-glub} experience.
maybe it was missed, but I tried to make a distinction between which appropriate battlefields to train for nowadays for my suburban-a$$... war or self-defense. I forgot that you are living in 18th century Okinawa, so your threats may be different than from someone, lets say, shopping at a mall.

to tie this back on topic, I think looking at lineage can educate us as to what type of 'battlefield' each generation trained (and perhaps modified) the Art which was handed down.

always a pleasure, B.C. , M.V. (or is it S.O.S. now)

Top
#203628 - 11/16/05 12:31 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Ed, a fair question you posted earlier. I would say that the awarness that you learn in a modern (tink Vietnam) battlefield would indeed prepare you to be a warrior. Would I qualify these guys with the likes of Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura? No, I dont think so. Some may have excelled in thier ability to kill and even may have been great H2H combat guys. I do not know how they would fair against Matsumura honestly. But I will stand by my statement that battle tried and proven is an important qualification in an empty hand fighting art, IMHO.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#203629 - 11/16/05 12:56 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Nice to see you back Son of the Omega Krunked Verse. This place was getting a little dull.

Top
#203630 - 11/16/05 10:29 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Let's remember to keep it dull,and on topic.

It is not about who's karate is real,battle tested,or how weak and stupid we all are compared to others.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#203631 - 11/16/05 02:15 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
traq Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 131
Loc: SoCal
well, I believe that lineage is important, but not as a bragging tool. Lineage isn't something that sets you apart from other schools (unless your style was literally just "made up" at some point ), it connects you with other schools. A friend of mine says, "If it's karate, we at least have Karate Sakugawa in common." Understanding your martial arts lineage can help you understand the evolution of your style and ultimately benefits your training.

USKO lineage (shorin ryu):

Joseph Pagliuso (Founder) & Michael Visser (Director)
Richard Nakano
Walter Nishioka (also trained under Funakoshi)
Hironori Ohtsuka
Gichin Funakoshi
Yasutsune Azato & Yasutsune Itosu
Sokon Matsumaura
Tode Sakugawa
Peichin Takahara
_________________________
Adrian USKO Riverside dojo/ Madison Elem. after-school

Top
#203632 - 11/16/05 03:06 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: phoenixsflame]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Quote:

The oldest MA reputedly comes from India or was it Africa? I think MA should technically date back to the first day someone picked up a stone and flung it at someone else instead of at a deer or something.

We can trace our lineage as far back as we want, but our time's better spent training instead of being nostalgic.




Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. Its not about tracing the martial art back to the original forms. Its about the birth of a different approach and how long its been evolving.

I personally trust a dojo whose lineage is more traditional above a lot of the "Modern" nontrad groups. I've seen the students of these Dojo's/Kwoon's/Dojang's and I've not been impressed. However, those who are more traditional, I have found to be a better group in general. (There are exceptions to both cases mind you.)

I think it goes back a lot to the Dojo-Kun... Most modern Karate's don't pay homage... I studied at a Modern Shorin-Ryu Shorin-Kan Dojo in California, no respect, the supposed Kyoshin/Leader of this group of people was at most pathetic. I wouldn't lump him in with Traditional because there was no sense of tradition in what he did. Only winning in competitions.

Yet, I find a smaller, less prominent dojo who pays homage to tradition and find humble people.

You can argue both sides of the theoretic "Lineage VS Non-Lineage" but it is all up to opinion. Those people who are more serious about their training, less concerned with Competitions and that sort of thing will almost certainly go Traditional. Those who are interested in "Extreme Martial Arts" (A nice oxy moron there for you guys to chew on) will float more towards the non-lineage lines...




I think you should get better informed about modern MA, BJJ and JKD are very effective.

The concept that somehow "things were better in the old days" is far too prevalent in the MA and imho is leading to stagnation in the arts.

Just because a style is old doesn't make it better. The practitioners of today can be worse than their predecessors. And even back in the "old days" they had Bullshido (dance passed off as MA). Lineage doesn't count for much when it comes to quality of instruction and it certainly doesn't validate looking down upon newer arts.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#203633 - 11/16/05 04:11 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

You're trying to be hurtful, but it just sounds dumb.

I wasn't talking about Military H2H training or even modern military necessarily ...I was talking about Military H2H blood-gurgling war {glub-glub} experience.
maybe it was missed, but I tried to make a distinction between which appropriate battlefields to train for nowadays for my suburban-a$$... war or self-defense. I forgot that you are living in 18th century Okinawa, so your threats may be different than from someone, lets say, shopping at a mall.

to tie this back on topic, I think looking at lineage can educate us as to what type of 'battlefield' each generation trained (and perhaps modified) the Art which was handed down.

always a pleasure, B.C. , M.V. (or is it S.O.S. now)




"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...

Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.

1800 Okinawa, China or Japan was probably pretty rough compared to now. If a man died or was permanently disabled then that meant your family might die too. That's a huge difference in training for self-preservation vs. SD. Something to think about.

But yeah I agree with your last statement. One thing we all can't forget is- "don't fix it if it ain't broke". There is always room for individual tailor fitting and sound modifications. The great teachers will always say this. Hohan Soken learned from various teachers after he had a strong foundation in his family system as did Kano, Miyagi, Matsumura, Funakoshi, Kenwa, Chotoku Kyan, Higa Yuchoku, Oyama and so on. To modify something because you don't know what the original answers to the question were and then claim you are making things better is just dishonest. If you train with a sensei or coach or instructor and the solutions they give you for certain problems work perfectly for you then why modify?

Those guys who supposedly "modified" something for the better (when it comes to karate at least) probably didn't have the level of understanding or the proper training to address those questions in the first place. I won't mention names or styles but, trust me, they are myriad. They probably also wanted to make their imprint by being innovators of an innovation even if they were nothing of the sort. Or they just wanted clout and money...

If anyone's intent with a striking prevalent art is to make it an all out affair with full contact sparring as an emphasis then they have a problem with fooling themselves because, at this time and all times before, there is no way to test your repertoire of skills completely with an all encompassing MA that includes striking as its emphasis (real karate) as with a grappling art. To test yourself by continuously kicking your own butt and giving yourself brain and body damage is really defeating the purpose of it all. That's what folks who are perpetual journeyman or sport-billy types can't understand. It's just beyond their scope of training and understanding.

Conversely, training with little or no contact, using flashy, amorphous forms/kata and refusing to understand proper biomechanics and physics, i.o.w. fitting square pegs into round holes, will get you nowhere except hurt if you ever have to use your pseudo-fighting skills for real.

Everything, EVERYTHING has a fine median. Moderation in all things, like J.C. said, or travel the middle path like Buddha emphasized. So lineage AND style aren't everything but they are good reference points- where you came from and where you might be going.

Back to relevant training and environ. I think that guns, aside, the threats from an assailant or a host of them haven't changed with the times. The lessons of old school karate, chuan fa and aikijujutsu are very relevant to any time period. They all address the problem of self-preservation during times of less structure and more entropy.

Having said all that, I'm not being hurtful in anyway. I'm a veteran myself who dealt with all branches and I can tell you that they are no better equipped for mano-a-mano fighting than your average person, war experience or not. Now military brats, that might be a different thing altogether due to the fact you often have to fight growing up because with the constant moves (PCS') you are always the stranger who has to prove himself. But their parents? Unless they are SpecOps they aren't any tougher than the average dude and their war training/experience often does nothing but give them PTSD or slowly erode their empathy and conscience, two things you need in order to be a true warrior IMO.

I'll also say again that the ring or cage, even MMAs, doesn't prepare one any more adequately for real life confrontation than GOOD TMAs training, no matter what Dana White's S&M loving self claims!

Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip...

Dr. S.O.S. Omegakrunkenversed, PhD in Reality from F.U.!!!

Top
#203634 - 11/16/05 04:35 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
lol...'eddie' - my sisters are the only ones who call me that.

I've got nothing against you. I'm not even offended by your tone. BTW, I didn't see the first of your back-to-back posts, the one discribing how someone e-mailed your sensei...if thats true, it's pretty disturbing and makes me think twice of what I write on here. just seems ugly no matter how much of a$$ people think someone is.

your point about moderation makes sense. there might be hope for you yet.

back to topic before the thread gets shut down: I think one of the glaring points I'm getting from the thread (the on topic parts) is that lineage doesn't matter how far back you can trace, but rather the important thing is the path that your Art took on it's way to you.

Top
#203635 - 11/16/05 04:44 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I think the present interpretation of an art is more important than its lineage. If the present students and instructors of an art aren't doing a good job of training and teaching it, no amount of history will make it good.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#203636 - 11/16/05 04:48 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip.




Problem with assumed intent? Where would he get that idea, sonny? Maybe from this:

Quote:

"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...




Oh I get it..... it was a joke. You weren't trying to be arrogant and pedantic. Good one sonny.

Quote:

Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.




True. And if you want to go there, space is not real in the same sense. But I'm sure you already knew that. Welcome back.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#203637 - 11/16/05 04:49 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I feel it is important to know your schools or systems lineage as history as it is with anything you seek to follow. But I don't think it illegitmize todays Trad systems of training in the since that its better or worst then more recent or ecelctics arts.

But it is good to know a systems history and its following. At least you have an idea of what to expect and what is being taught and can see the modren results. Some systems can be so new or mis-aligned that they teach nothing but a bunch of moves, others so much in a dis-array that their is no begining or no progress to a certain level of learning. Of course there are some old methods teaching/training that are out dated.

New is not always shining & bright and Old is not always dull and rusty.

There are some Good New Ideas and systems and there are some Good Old Systems and ideas. And of course you can flip that coin.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#203638 - 11/16/05 05:15 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: MattJ]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

Quote:

Anyway, Eddie, wtf do you have against me? I didn't say anything different about Kenshinkan than Page did. You've got some kind of problem with reading into the assumed emotion or intent behind my words. Get a grip.

Problem with assumed intent? Where would he get that idea, sonny? Maybe from this:

"Sounds" dumb? How the hell can you hear my intonation or anything I TYPE on the net? What do you imagine my voice sounds like without ever hearing it? There is medication for that...

Oh I get it..... it was a joke. You weren't trying to be arrogant and pedantic. Good one sonny....




What's up with the sonny, fool? I was being arrogant AND funny smart-a$$! Don't get it twisted!!!

Quote:

Also time is nothing but our minds attempt to make sense of our movement in space. It's not real.

True. And if you want to go there, space is not real in the same sense. But I'm sure you already knew that. Welcome back.




For the not reals? Word?! WORD!!!

Good to be a nuisance again, at least temporarily... Peace, fools!!!

Top
#203639 - 11/16/05 05:18 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Quote:

lol...'eddie' - my sisters are the only ones who call me that.

I've got nothing against you. I'm not even offended by your tone. BTW, I didn't see the first of your back-to-back posts, the one discribing how someone e-mailed your sensei...if thats true, it's pretty disturbing and makes me think twice of what I write on here. just seems ugly no matter how much of a$$ people think someone is.

your point about moderation makes sense. there might be hope for you yet.




Yeah many people suck and then they are made aware of that fact and they get mad at you for bringing it up.

As far as the moderation thing, I HOPE there's hope for my silly ass!!! I am moderate in moderation I suppose...

No worries bro....

Top
#203640 - 11/16/05 08:46 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
you'll see less of people's sucky side if you keep your posting to your technical knowledge rather than your emotionally charged ego displays.

but since this thread is not all about you, back on topic...I came across a good quote on this:

"If you want to know why lineage is so important, ask the people who fake it."
- John Lindsey (e-budo admin)


Top
#203641 - 11/16/05 09:49 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

Now that Eddie and Sonny have made each other's day (with a little 'help' from Matt) I say that in the old days, lineage was very important. By old days, I would say pre-WWII when a lot of old masters were still alive and teaching. MA, as everything else, was change forever by the second 'great' war.

Why important? because of the psychotic secrecy that used to surround the teaching / transmission of MA knowledge; yes, 'knowledge' not technique because what is displayed in public or taught to "outdoor" students were intentionally very different from what an "indoor" student learnt. Those who have gone through their own family system will know what I meant.

As I said before, I just have to mention that I learnt this or that from my grandfather, a knowledgeable listener will blindly assume that whatever I learnt from grandpa has to be the real thing because grandpas will never hold back on his grandkids. If an outsider were to say he learnt the same thing from my grandpa, there will aways be an element of doubt. Would you think that of Ueshiba Morihei's son?

Now, perhaps in an atmosphere of cartesian pragmatism and also unbridled competition among masters for fee-paying students, things are viewed differently (thus the new-age idea of a MA seminar was born) Added to this is the modern tendency to mix-match anything from clothes, shoes, handbags to MA. Going through the whole system of any particular MA would take too long and in any case not necessary, unlike before where cross-training was viewed as betrayal. There is, like everthing else in life, good and bad to all this.

My point? acknowledged lineage meant credible legitimacy.

Whether it has anything to do with qualitative effectiveness is another thing all together.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#203642 - 11/16/05 10:34 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I love it, the argument is circling back to my point: your immediate teacher is more important.

So you have three teachers.

1. Dr Krunkenstein

2. A teacher whose teacher was a Nidan under Ron Lindsey, but taught XMA

3. Me

Krunkeinstein might have the big inheritance, but I am still better than the XMA-Seido guy - why? Lineage is very easily broken. Hohan Soken was revered beacuse (I'm not sure) was taught by Nabe. Nabe was revered because he was taught by Sokon Matsumura. All were revered teachers because they produced the goods as martial artists.

So eventually, a lineage coming from the XMA-Seido guy might turn good with a good student with an open mind and good work ethic. Like a flower growing out of a pot of dirt!

Dr Krunkeinstein could also sell out, and his student's lineage be worthless, but his still intact.

A chain is only as strong as the weakest link - or the next one along the line.

Top
#203643 - 11/16/05 10:58 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
a post with two replies:

butterflypalm: You might be hot, but I think you are wrong.
Quote:

unlike before where cross-training was viewed as betrayal


No it wasn't. take a look at Okinawa, turn of the 20th century and get back with what you find out. people didn't get into all of that secrecy 'business' just for secrecy sake. c'mon now. people keep secrets of It when they are either selling It or using It against each other.

Mark, good point....and funny.

Top
#203644 - 11/17/05 02:23 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Any relevance in confucianism, respect for ancestors, or other philosophical or religious beliefes of that part of Asia? I don't know about Okinawan(as it seems to be the main focus of this discussion) religious/philosophical beliefs, but could that shed any light on the subject?

Nothing to add, just maybe provoking more thought.

PS-I'm enjoying reading this, guys. Keep it up.


Edited by JoelM (11/17/05 02:24 AM)
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

Top
#203645 - 11/17/05 03:01 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
interesting, culture is always part of every change in any generation, but hard to nail down exactly (especially for me, since I really don't know all that much about it)...so I'm not sure.
The only point I've been trying to suggest is that even if someone looks at lineage as a family tree, it never tells the whole story of where the Art is coming from. Each generation has their requirements, needs or opportunity...often even those change within a single generation. If history has taught us anything (in regard to the topic) it teaches that people make do with what they have at the time of crisis/need/opportunity and improvise as neccessary... why wouldn't karate follow that same logic of how humans have used tools?

following that train of thought, I'm just saying lineage can't be separated from historical objectives.

some have a direct lineage of training with masters who optimised their Art for sport. (thats what they were TRYING to do)
some have a direct lineage optimised for self-defense.
etc.
some have a blurring of the two lineages, which worked out perfect because the practictioner needed both for whatever reason.

The most important thing about lineage isn't just appreciating a tree of leaves having nametags.

Top
#203646 - 11/17/05 03:09 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'm not even going to pretend to have read all of this; i'll just throw in my 2 cents. Lineage doesn't always mean tracing the origins of your system or any one system back to the beginning. Even a person who has studied several styles has a lineage. It just has more branches. Lineage IS important and i feel those who don't think so are either kidding themselves or don't fully grasp the idea. Ask yourself this. If you met an individual who has only studied under say Ashida Kim, how much credibility would you give their skill? Because you know his instructor (lineage) the chances of their skill being dismissed would greatly go up. What if you know the individual to not have any lineage at all (fully self taught), how much faith would you put in their ability? Lineage can help you determine the legitimacy of the instructor and/or art. If there is a school in your area claiming to teach BJJ but the instructor can only provide you with his training background in TKD would you really be willing to believe he is teaching BJJ? Based on his lineage i would say no. Now if you found a school making the same claims but the instructor was taught and ranked by a member of the Gracie family what would you think then?

Just like anything in the martial arts or life in general you can't take everything at face value. A person/arts lineage is only a tool to help you determine the usefulness, validity or legitimacy of an art/instructor. You shouldn't dismiss it or rely solely on it to make your decision. Many of the "good" lineages are thought of that way because it's well known that their way of training has been effective. They have been proven effective for a long time and it's known that the practitioners aren't simply handed their ranking or certification.

I also noticed something said about creating a new style and it being just as effective or more effective than an older style because it's not "outdated". I personally would like to believe that in the last 2000 years or so there hasn't been a "new" way of fighting developed, only different perspectives. When a long time practitioner of Shotokan develops their own style they aren't creating anything new, even if they add other arts to it. They are only doing what is meant of them, making the art their own. Part of the reason we have so many variations of arts is because these people have found what works best for them in the art and some how felt they have improved something. They then go on to rename it and market it as "their" style when it is only their interpretation of the style. I don't think this is good or bad for the arts in general. On one hand this is in part the cause of the original training of that art being lost to some extent but at the same time it affords people more options to train in similar variations of the same art based on whoís interpretation fits them best. What Iím getting at is just because a system has been around for a couple hundred years doesnít mean itís less effective or watered down nor does it mean itís more effective. Just as more ďmodernĒ arts donít always equal more effective arts.

Regardless of if you think you are influenced by a personís lineage the fact is you are in some way. I do think people and arts that focus too much on lineage are missing the point too. A good majority of the people Iíve met who focus more on what art has the longest lineage are usually hiding behind their lineage.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

Top
#203647 - 11/17/05 03:22 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

But I am still happy

Turn of the century Okinawa was not a good counter-point. They were trying to learn what they could from the Chinese, not the other way around. The Chinese already have complete systems to last a few life times. The Okinawans were doing the mixing and matching.

By 'betrayal' I meant an implication that your master's art lack something and so requires supplementing through cross-training.

When, as a youngster, I told my family members I wanted to learn Judo, I got some shocked 'Whys!'
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#203648 - 11/17/05 07:41 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
...you just made my point. so, Okinawan Te was no longer Okinawans cup of Ti ? lol..ok, bad pun, couldn't resist.

How is it possible that practically ALL of the founders of something-Ryu had 3 or more influences (respected Sensei) without any of them being 'betrayers' ? answer: because they were not betraying anything or anybody.
Maybe, they were even encouraged to cross-train.

looking at the 19th century, you find Okinawan masters seeking chinese influences (or re-influences?) into toudi.
tou=tang=china (as in Tang dynasty) + di/ti/te=hand.

why were they doing that? for instance, was Higashionna trying to recapture something he felt was lost to time, or was he crosstraining his existing Art of 'Te'? In any case, was he viewed as betraying anything?

Top
#203649 - 11/17/05 10:03 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I don't think there was any betrayal just looking for a better way to defend themselves effectively and effeicently is what I believe was sought. In modren times these things can be looked over to the more glittery or profitable pretty or fancy method of a system making them a sport rather then a MA. IMHO.

Thats is a question to ponder. Whats was his mission if already trained in TE? I believe his past instructor adviced him to go to China. So it would seem there was no betrayal.


Edited by Neko456 (11/17/05 10:04 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#203650 - 11/17/05 03:36 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
The end of the Okinawan kingdom and the politial turmoil at the end of the 19th century in China marked the change in the training of tode. Before that time people would learn certain techniques/kata/applications with several masters and build their own curriculum. The studies in China were not only limited to martial arts but part of either academic study or related to diplomatic/business activities. Anyway, Chinese culture and manners were regarded as high standard in Okinawan society. Tode was never about fighting alone but must be seen in a brother cultural picture. The Okinawans would not limit themselves to one system only but apllied principles and training methods of several systems and added their own flavor. They made the system their own. But these evolutions were also part of the Chinese traditions.
Since the 1920ies, the Chinese influence was minimal due to the political environment. Nowadays, thanks to our information and communication society, arts are evolving again and there are 2 approaches. Throw away what you cannot use/apply and replace by what you can use/apply or reverse engeneering: try to apply/use something new in existing method/principles. Try to figure out if this new thing was already there.
Betrayal or not, the first way will lead to a converted or newer system, the second will stay within his lineage and is referred to as 'traditional'.
What counts for me is that I have fun while training and this implies renovating constantly as my body and knowledge changes.
Is lineage important ? It depends on what you are trying to sell to yourselves and/or others.

Top
#203651 - 11/17/05 07:53 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: CVV]
SonOfSoken Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/14/05
Posts: 13
Wow. I forget how many of you on this forum were smart and insightiful. All the responses have been great and I've been humbled.

Anyway my final take on this is that lineage probably only means something to someone who comes from a solid one. I'm sure that a kid who is taking "Master Jimmy Crackcorn's Eclectic Freestyle American Kenpo Karate" wouldn't even know what a legit lineage is let alone care.

You know everyone always hypes up e-budo, but out of all the sites with good martial artists posting on them this forum is tops IMHO. You guys know your stuff and I respect that.

Don't get big-headed though. I'm bound to have a heated debate with some of you sooner or later. If that happens don't take it personally.

Great thread, Edward!

Top
#203652 - 11/17/05 10:22 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
yes, good thread Brian...that's BrIan with an 'I'.

If you trace the lineage of this thread waaay back to the first page and first post, you'll find the spawner of this family, we call him our Threadstarter.
Thread-brothers, thats what us Nth-gen posters are...and nobody...I mean NOBODY can take that away from us. (except maybe the Admin and a 'lock thread' button)

Good thread BrianS. So, in response to your friend who brought all of this up, ask him what he be sellin' and see what you be smellin'. Then tell him you're mellon be gellin from his fellon. lol

p.s. only my Mother calls me 'Edward'

Top
#203653 - 11/18/05 07:40 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Thanks Ed! I agree with SonofSoken(lol). Lots of good and knowledgeable people here,best on the web!

I really don't want to talk to that guy much anymore.Besides,he's hard to get a word in edgewise on because he's too busy talking about what he knows.

He has a good lineage,probably better than mine,but I do know mine and I take pride in it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#203654 - 11/18/05 12:28 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: SonOfSoken]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I'm sure that a kid who is taking "Master Jimmy Crackcorn's Eclectic Freestyle American Kenpo Karate" wouldn't even know what a legit lineage is let alone care.




Oy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#203655 - 11/18/05 01:10 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Quote:

Quote:

I'm sure that a kid who is taking "Master Jimmy Crackcorn's Eclectic Freestyle American Kenpo Karate" wouldn't even know what a legit lineage is let alone care.




Oy.




Oy. Double oy.

Top
#203656 - 11/18/05 01:26 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Oy vey !

Top
#203657 - 11/18/05 02:09 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Well, Ed, Matt and I are two of the more prominent practitioners of AKK on this forum. And we do care about the lineage of the style, which is part of the reason we both got out of AKK, just too much politics over who was taught by who.

Top
#203658 - 11/18/05 03:06 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
yes I know, didn't mean to sound insensitive-just being a goof.

so, where can the thread go from here? don't know, so I'll just give my personal feelings on lineage... while I'm fascinated by the history and trying to figure out how things came to be how they are... at the same time, I feel a neutral pride in lineage - it's not the same kind of pride or in the same personal way like in blood-family lineage.
just babbling...maybe the thread's tapped.
-e

Top
#203659 - 11/18/05 03:44 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The thread is tapped,maybe someone can add to it in the future. Until then here's my lineage.

Brian Stone - 2nd dan,I was taught by Randy Allen 4th dan,Dale Simmons 4th dan and Jasper Smith 5th dan,Randy was taught by Dale and Jasper,Jasper and Dale were taught by Dino Cadelli and Lou Angel(then it was goju kai,I believe)Lou Angel was taught by Peter Urban and got his 3rd dan through Gogen Yamaguchi.Lou Angel is 10th dan now,but I'm not sure how that transpired. Peter Urban was taught by Yamaguchi,but split to form U.S.A. Goju due to a misunderstanding betwen them. Gogen Yamaguchi was under Chojun Myagi(founder of Goju-Ryu)as well as others I believe. That's far enough back for everyone,especially me, and has little impact on my current training.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#203660 - 11/18/05 03:55 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Myself, edan, Master Tomas Duncan 6th dan, Yong Taek Chung 9th dan sometimes spelled Jung, Won Kuk Lee founder of Chung Do Kwan (deceased) sometimes spelled Yee, Gichin Funikoshi founder of Shotokan.

Top
#203661 - 11/18/05 04:08 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: oldman]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
So far for me, I was taught by Al Myrtle, Who was originally taught by someone else (I don't know who), but currently falls under Richard "Huk" Planas, Who was taught by Ed Parker, who was taught by William K. S. Chow, who was taught by James Mitose, and I still don't know where to go from there.

Top
#203662 - 11/18/05 04:42 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
it was easier for me to just draw a pic:
http://www.geocities.com/what_dayaknow/lineage.jpg

Top
#203663 - 11/18/05 05:48 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Wow! Nice pedigree.

But my style is mightier than yours. We must fight to uphold the honor of our masters & see who is stronger.


Top
#203664 - 11/18/05 06:17 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: hedkikr]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Crap....

I'm gonna post up my "lineage" without mentioning my first intructor's name, cause I don't know how he'd feel about that...Better to just play it safe...

Isshinryu:
Me, Taught by:
Spanish teacher Taught by:
Norb Donnelley

Wing Chun:
Me, Spanish teacher, Garner Train, Ip Ching.
Spanish Teacher mentioned he met Ip Ching once, and did Chi Sau with him....buena por ťl, mal por mi...

Arnis Sikaran:
Me, Spanish Teacher, Grandmaster Bong Jornales

Shorin Ryu:
http://a2amas.com/scott/
I was taught by some brown and blacks who are in his AA studio.

I have no belts in WC, Insshin Ryu, or Arnis .
I gots 2 stripes on a white belt for Shorin Ryu , whatever that makes me....


Frankly, my breakdancing "lineage" is far more impressive...
_________________________
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

Top
#203665 - 11/18/05 10:47 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Shito-Ryu Lineage

Duncan Nosworthy, 1st Dan

Taught by Hanshi Minobu Miki

Taught by (But not exclusively) the late Soke Kenzo Mabuni.

Taught by the late Soke (and founder of Shito Ryu) Kenwa Mabuni

Taught by... Well, you get the picture. Anyone who knows Karate's history will recognize the Mabuni line.

I was lucky enough to meet with Soke Kenzo Mabuni (son of Kenwa) once, I didn't speak to him, he just bowed and went on his way, lol.
Thats basically it,
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

Top
#203666 - 11/18/05 10:57 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: hedkikr]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

But my style is mightier than yours. We must fight to uphold the honor of our masters & see who is stronger.




I pictured you saying that with your lip movement not matching the words. pointing and clenching your fist.

Top
#203667 - 11/21/05 11:10 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
My lineage is rather short.
Peichin Takahara
Satunuku Tode Sakugawa
Sokon Bushi Matsumura
Chosho Chibana
Shinyei Hanashiro
Me

My lineage is important to me, much as yours should also be important to you. To know your lineage is to give homeage to your arts founders and masters that have went before. A Shinto concept but one we all should learn from.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#203668 - 11/21/05 11:40 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
It occured to me to post my lineage as well. Also relatively short.

Peichin Takahara
Satunuku Kanga "Tode" Sakugawa
Sokon Bushi Matsumura
Tanmei "Nabe" Matsumura
Hohan Soken
Dr. Henry Inoue
Me

Sensei Hart, it appears that we come from the same root. Only the minor difference of branches.

I am wondering if you are the same Paul Hart that sometimes posts on the Matsumura Shorin Ryu Group. If so, I would be very intersted to speak with you. I have read many insightful posts from you and have really enjoyed the info that you have shared. I am glad you are here.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

Top
#203669 - 11/22/05 12:26 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
It's important to me in the sense of history...not in a royalty/pride sense (I'm not saying it's that way for anybody here...although it's been known to happen I suppose). and it's easier to feel that way, since I never had a really really famous sensei

p.s. possible dumb question: Is Hanashiro, Shinyei related to Hanashiro, Chomo ?

Top
#203670 - 11/22/05 02:20 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Yes, I am the same person. I believe there is only one Paul Hart in Karate here in the U.S. although I know there is also a Sifu Paul Hart in Colorado. There is possibly some relation betwwen the Hanashiro's as I do know Sensei did know and speak with Chomo Hanashiro on many occasions.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga