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#203578 - 11/11/05 05:40 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Diga]
AshiharaStudent Offline

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland

As someone else mentioned - it doesn't matter if your teacher learned from an age old master if he didn't really get it himself or doesn't know how to spread his knowledge to others.

What makes everyone think that because some guy invented a style 100's of years ago, that it is going to be any better than somthing invented by someone today? Surely since then, things have advanced and evolved in the world of MA.

Just a thought
All martial arts are equal.... it's just that some are more equal than others!

#203579 - 11/11/05 07:47 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Ed is correct about the Hohan Soken lineage, but I would like to add a little if I may.

Sensei Soken went to Argentina in 1928 and returned to Okinawa in 1952. In Argentina he had several students. One of them happens to be my teacher, Dr. Henry Inoue(Born to Okinawan parents in Argentina, using an English 1st name for teaching medicine in the US). Dr. Inoue was a long time student of Soken both in Argentina(not the only one,many are still there) and Okinawa.

*** It is very important to note that Sensei Soken ALWAYS maintained that Matsumura Seito WAS NOT the only true/legitimate Shorin Ryu. It is merely his Grandfathers style passed in the family*****

Sensei Fusei Kise is probably the best known Matsumura Seito practioner. He has a background in Shorinji Ryu and Matsumura Seito. While he is arguably one of the finest Seito practioners, It is important to note that Kenshin Kan(His current teaching) is not Matsumura Seito.

Sensei Kise is an excellent practioner and teacher, and one of the toughest men I have ever known, but he has not taught O'Sensei Sokens art for many,many years.

Again Ed is correct in saying that since the 1950's (having returned to Okinawa) Sensei Soken has had some good and some bad students. And the in vogue trend is to have claimed to have trained with Sensei Soken. Matsumura Seito has become quite fashionable over the last few years.

I'll go on record here at FA. I was 10 years old living in the Mid-west in the US when O'Sensei Soken died. There it is. If in a few years I become a 10th dan Soke and claim to be the heir to MSSR(Given the right by O'Sensei Soken)a good research hound like Ed can lump me in with Frank Dux and Ashida Kim

So here is the long and short of it, and kinda trying to get back on track. Sensei Soken has trained some less than credible characters(for as great as he was, he too was capable of being duped). Some truly remarkable Martial Artists were also trained by Soken. They took his influence and have done their own thing(nothing wrong with that). And men in women who have trained in the Bushi Matsumura>>>Hohan Soken lineage have been good and bad and produced good and bad.

Am I proud to be able to trace my lineage through Bushi Matsumura and farther? Of course I am. I would be equally proud to trace my lineage through Miyagi,Higaoshionna, Ru Ru Ko, or any of a number of others.

Rememberin all the while that my lineage is not the only one that has had a dramatic and positive effect on the history and future of Okinawan martial arts.

Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

#203580 - 11/11/05 07:50 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
Bushi_no_ki Offline

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Ashihara, therein lies the importance of lineage. Does "lineage" mean so bound by tradition that the style has lost most of its effectiveness, or does lineage mean the link to the past that says this is how long our style has had to grow. Lineage isn't what defines a style or art, or the only thing that gives it value. Lineage is what tells you where the art you study came from.

#203581 - 11/11/05 10:23 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: BuDoc]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I was hoping you'd fill in the blank Page. Thanks for clarifying and adding.

since this is very much on topic, I'll cross-reference another thread here...
You mentioned in that thread about people representing their Art give the best image to the Matsumura Seito Art I have seen/read.
Since posting last Spring, my forum impression of this style was by (former?) members multiversed and PETER... while knowledgeable and interesting, there was something that wasn't quite right; they didn't seem to realize that the '-Jitsu' can co-exist with the '-Do' within a person, and in fact, they complement each other not cancel each other out - too much style pride even if it's justified, even if they really are some kind of 'elite' MAist, is blinding. Of course people are more complex than what someone sees on a forum, so I may very well be point is that you seem to have a very good balance to your Art which carries over into your person and is apparent even online. There are several others who I think represent their respective arts equally as well. FWIW.

Now what I don't want is 'niceness retaliation'...that happens alot on forums. someone gives someone else a compliment and then that person never disagrees, embarrasses or challenges thought, as some kind of 'virtual loyalty' kindof thing. it's respectable, but at the same time...blech. Thats a subject for the sociologists. All I know is that I learn the most from people that can take and give honest but tactful opinion without politics or ego-stroking. There are some on here that are really good people and I'm learning. 'nuff o dat.

p.s. 'blank Page' - did anyone catch that pun?

#203582 - 11/11/05 12:16 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: AshiharaStudent]
Diga Offline

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Not sure just where yu are comming from. I believe most of us here are agreeing that lineage doesn't mean much these days.
It is good to know where your basic style came from but these days MAs have evolved and sticking to one line is not what wins competitions.
Don't get me wrong though - Almost any of the MA styles are good for you. Most people are not in it for beating people up. Training is good for you in more ways than that.

#203583 - 11/11/05 01:00 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Diga]
Ives Offline

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Lineage is import in understanding the art I suppose.
If you don't know your rot, how can you place yourself in the entire picture?

Still working on learning my style's philosophy though.

#203584 - 11/11/05 04:17 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ives]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
About those who could careless about lineage,I've often wandered if they themselves have something to hide,As it's the true lineage that seperates a real martial artist or organization frome a fake one.

I Remain Isshintyukid4life.

#203585 - 11/11/05 04:20 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ives]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

If you don't know your rot, how can you place yourself in the entire picture?

exactly, and Matt's biscuits might have been permenantly orphaned if he didn't know his rot.

#203586 - 11/11/05 05:23 PM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
*kicks Matt's biscuits out of the karate forum*

OK! His sensei's name is Don Foster,a small statured guy who is very nice,courteous,and humble,but I can tell he's tough. I've met with him a couple of times at their school. They do ALOT of weapons forms!

I couldn't help but feel pressured to join his schol as he asked several times and gave me the details. The problem was that was not the purpose for my visit,so I haven't gone back. The price was very good,but I was their just to share ideas,not to join their school. I didn't get to do much talking though.
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#203587 - 11/12/05 01:09 AM Re: How important is lineage? [Re: Ives]
Diga Offline

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
That is the reason I added the " Don't get me wrong " statement.

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