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#203005 - 11/14/05 12:19 PM Re: Alternative health [Re: Chanters]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Your cold and your sprained ankle will both be cured, whether you see a doctor or not.

What is the point?

Page

P.S. It couldn't hurt to rub a chicken bone on that ankle!
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#203006 - 11/14/05 02:00 PM Re: Alternative health [Re: Chanters]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
bad examples. Cold medicine and pain killers have never been claimed as cures....they are drugs to make you feel better.

but I understand what you are saying. and yes, I do think coincidence happens in western medicine as well. The difference being an important distinction: Science reports on the successes of reproducable results. Psuedo-Science reports on all the rest.

I started the thread hoping we could hash out which of the alternative medicine practices are fraud, psuedo-science, and which are worth considering.

If you'd like to start a thread about which western medical sciences are fraudulant, be my guest. To be equally critical, I'd guess that there are a few legitimate MD's prescribing far too many medications in an effort to 'push' products like an Avon lady marketing a new line of mascara.

very hard to prove, much less quantify. just my hunch considering how much drug companies rake in each year.

anyway, back to alternative medicine:
http://www.csicop.org/si/9709/beyer.html

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#203007 - 11/15/05 03:38 AM Re: Alternative health [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Granted the cold and sprained ankle were very bad examples, but you got my point.

Quote:

If you'd like to start a thread about which western medical sciences are fraudulant, be my guest.




I'm not claiming any western medicines are fraudulent, just posing the same queries and theories that you are placing on alternative therapies.

Quote:

Science reports on the successes of reproducable results.




To the best of their ability. But how many times is it often inaccurate or incomplete? Take Ibuprofen for example; well known for it's painkilling properties without serious side-effects but then a 'report' or 'research' appears to show a link between Ibuprofen and breast cancer. Whether these 'reports' or 'scientific studies' are accurate I'm not sure.

Just because its 'Science', it doesn't make it concrete evidence, but this is all we have to go by before some other improved theory or scientific study comes up. Smoking cigarettes and drinking coca cola used to be prescribed by doctors who's scientific studies suggested that it cured the common cold, depression and anxiety etc. But today's research show's this again to be inaccurate. A drug I used to take when I was younger to relieve my hayfever was after 6 or so years taken off the market because reports the medication damaged the liver. At the time the drug was developed, the 'scientific research' they carrried out showed no seriously adverse side-effects but then later 'scientific studies' suggest that it did and thus the medication was taken off the market.

You started this thread to basically voice your negative judgement upon alternative therapies. Then someone comes along and says that a certain therapy helped them where orthodox medicine had failed and you say that it's purely coincidental. I can't say for the other therapies listed whether they work or not, because I haven't tried them. This is not to say I question whether they work or not but I can't really have an opinion on something I have never tried.

So here's another experience for you to brush aside with your coincidental theory: A few years ago I suffered with a recurring urinary tract infection. Each time I went to the doctors they prescribed me with some antibiotics which seemed to clear the problem up (although the visit I made to the doctor could have healed me alone! ) On two of the numerous occasions, the infection moved up into my kidneys. I went for blood tests and saw a specialist. Nor the specialist or the doctor could tell me what was causing the infections. I then went back to my reflexologist to try and alleviate some of the pain in my back (this is something you experience with kidney infections). She moved on to my kidneys and told me to go back to the doctors because she felt something in my right kidney which she thought may have been a stone but she said she couldn't be sure. I went back to my GP, who booked me in for an ultrasound on my kidneys and sure enough, there was a 4mm stone in my kidney. This had been the cause of my recurring urinary tract infection. I was then booked in to return to the hospital 8 months later to see if the kidney stone had grown or moved so they could see if they needed to operate to remove it. They did another ultrasound and the stone had disappeared. My refelxologist told me that refelxology cannot make things like kidney stones disappear but said the fact that I had changed my eating habits quite dramatically, may have possibly helped the stone to break down and make its' way out of my body naturally. But she said she couldn't be sure.

So go on, tell me that the reflexologist had just picked up a funny lump on my foot and she by some kind of trickery, knew there was something wrong with my right kidney and by a stroke of luck, or pure coincidence, there was a kidney stone. Maybe she planted it? Maybe the stone was all in my mind? Maybe the doctors knew all along but didn't tell me just for the hell of it?

Wow, that's possibly the longest post I have ever written on this forum. My wrists ache so maybe I'll go with BuDoc's advice and rub a chicken bone on them!
_________________________
Chanters

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#203008 - 11/16/05 03:54 PM Re: Alternative health [Re: harlan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I have ear problems and they actually cleared up for a few days after I had a jar of warm wood ash rolled around my head by an elderly lady in east Poland (I kid thee not!)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#203009 - 11/16/05 04:16 PM Re: Alternative health [Re: Chanters]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
glad things eventually turned out ok.

The whole point is, it saves money to be sceptical and informed when it comes to alternative practices. Since 'Alternatice health' is a categorical term that includes practices like 'spiritual surgery' and such, then any other practices falling under the umbrella of 'alternative' would be wise to investigate a bit (without being clouded by your emotions) before investing a whole lotta hope...and money.

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#203010 - 11/17/05 03:40 AM Re: Alternative health [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
It cost me 10 ($7.50 ish) per session which lasted 45mins to 1 hour. If I stayed on the orthodox route prescriptions for medication 6 ($4) and I would spend 5 on average on painkillers per week before I went onto have reflexology. It was money well spent in my opinion.

I do agree with you with regards to being aware of alternative therapies because there are fraudsters out there. I went to a Chinese herbalist once who had been recommended by a friend. It cost 45 for a consultaion and then 25 for a bag of I don't know what which I was supposed to mix with hot water (tasted rank! ) After 1 week I felt no different and my condition hadn't improved at all. Needless to say I didn't return for the further 3 weeks which he recommended I do to complete the 'treatment'. I'm not saying he was a fraudster but his treatment didn't work for me or my bank account!

It's good to have a certain level of skepicism and to be rational when concerned with any treatment whether alternative or orthodox.

Thanks for the interesting and thought-provoking thread Ed!
_________________________
Chanters

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#203011 - 11/17/05 11:05 AM Re: Alternative health [Re: Chanters]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
hey, not so fast...the thread aint over. we haven't visted a chelation therapy center yet.

here is what a potential patient sees being presented as 'healthy living':
http://www.manhattanadvancedmedicine.com/chelation.htm
http://www.paracelsusclinic.com/chelation3.asp

whoa, scarry stuff...sounds like we are gonna die if we don't get this taken care of...code orange, people. get out the check-books cuz insurance won't cover this one.
looks legit though, right? shows a pic of a big building and they are in NYC, so what they say on their website has got to be true...{clears throat}

here is what an informed potential non-patient sees:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3000843
you get the idea...but just in case your hungry for more:
http://www.drcranton.com/chelation/carter.htm

now, if you would, please go back and re-read the text closely that claims the 85% success rate...not only do we now realize the tests were all conducted by sellers of the treatment, but they managed to slip in the words "Informal trials" - when did they do that, and what is the difference to 'formal testing'? and why did they have to qualify the success rate with a 'on the order of' *(see note)? Just when we were paying the least amount of attention (our minds focus on the % figure not where the figure comes from...just like important partisan bills that are passed during Thanksgiving, when everyone has the game on. lol).

Now you see whats happening...they didn't lie, they just cleverly worded it to give the appearence of the truth that you'd like to believe.

I'm not saying politicians ...I mean... physicians...damn, I meant 'doctors' (always get those Dr. & M.D. terms confused) are dishonest...they sometimes just provide 'Alternate Truths'.

congrats. you are now a skepdic like me. here is your prize: information.
http://www.skepdic.com/

enjoy.

footnote:
*'on the order of' means "approximated between the lower magnitude and the higher magnitude." Magnitude is measured in powers of 10. In the case of percentages, saying 'on the order of' means anywhere between 0-100. thats why nobody says it that way with %. BUT, {sigh} they wouldn't be wrong for saying 'on the order of 85%' even if they had actual formal double-blind tests from unvested interests with a success rate of 0%. nice, huh?

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#203012 - 11/17/05 11:54 AM Re: Alternative health [Re: Ed_Morris]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Man, I was just starting to get my blood pressure back under control, and you come out with this BS.

Your gonna put me in an early grave!!

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#203013 - 11/17/05 12:12 PM Re: Alternative health [Re: Ed_Morris]
MikeMartial Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/03
Posts: 767
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Excellent links, Ed!
I was impressed by the skepdic link and the description on chiros.
_________________________
"You do not truly know someone until you fight them." - Seraph, The Matrix Reloaded

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#203014 - 11/18/05 10:12 AM Re: Alternative health [Re: MikeMartial]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Have to admit, I didn't read what they had on Chiro until you pointed it out...the write-up seemed a great effort to be fair. thats the best I've read on the subject showing both sides of the Chiro argument.

good eye, Mike.

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