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#20251 - 01/19/04 10:54 AM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
rookie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 652
Loc: US
So you are saying that Tyson, Ali, Gracie etc all had trainers or teachers that could beat them? If I was traing a world champ and i could beat them, why aren't I competing?

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#20252 - 01/19/04 11:24 AM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi Chen Zen

A couple of notes on your post:

"Obviously Bruce was fast, had much power and technique so on and etc."

Why obviously. There are no records of fights, no videos of fighting and the only word passed down is that of his fans. As such distortions are entirely probable.

"Now given that he possessed these attributes if he could have been beaten by Chuck or Joe then it was because of flawed technique."

If Lee had these, why do you pick on his technique as being flawed. It could have been any number of things.

"Also I think any good teacher should be able to fight better than his students because he has more experience and a better understanding of the system."

Again, look at boxing as a prime example. The trainers cannot beat the people they are training.

"Shoalin Monks fight even in their late sixties and probably even older and are quite confident in doing so."

Says who. Where are the fight records. If you're to make me believe that a 65 year old monk could hold his own against todays top fighters, there had better be some evidence to support it. Sounds like the perpetuation of myths to me.

JohnL

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#20253 - 01/19/04 12:08 PM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
The conversation about learning from someone you can beat stemmed from the example of Bruce lee teaching other champs like joe lewis and chuck norris. Obviously Bruce was fast, had much power and technique so on and etc. Now given that he possessed these attributes if he could have been beaten by Chuck or Joe then it was because of flawed technique. Also I think any good teacher should be able to fight better than his students because he has more experience and a better understanding of the system. Shoalin Monks fight even in their late sixties and probably even older and are quite confident in doing so.[/QUOTE]Chen, where's the proof? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#20254 - 01/19/04 06:41 PM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
As for Bruces attributes look at the videos of him demonstrating the difference in power between karate strikes and JKD. Im sure you can find them on a google search but Im not going to do all your homework for you. As for shoalin monks Ive personally seen them do demonstrations and the feats they pull of are inhuman. As for teachers competing, not everyone chooses to compete. As for boxing, I just dont care about boxing. Would tyson beat Cus Demato, yes, if he could hit him but tyson is a one move guy and Demato has the experience and know how to find a way around one technique.

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#20255 - 01/19/04 09:58 PM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by joesixpack:
My point was, how the hell would MT know wether how well I can judge a person's fighting ability by the way I analyse their training methods, fitness and "style" (game, if you prefer)?

Bruce was known for his street brawling, admitted stuff on camera was too flashy, was fast, very fit, had a good theory and could hit hard.

Would you break into his house?
[/QUOTE]


Mate, i dont care who you are, how many years you have been doing martial arts for or how many students you teach, you can not asses the fighting ability of any man by simply watching him train. If you say you can then I am sorry to say but you have a lot to learn.

I fight competitively and the only way you can really asses fighting ability is by watching them fight, no other way.

When people train, or show of in training this only means they are good at training, nothing else, 1000's of people look damn hot when training, and I have seen this, once they step in the ring, BAM!!! they look and perform like beginners. I didnt mean to put you down but i strongly disagree with you. I am not the man who thought this up but it is a fact of fighting, training and fighting are two different things.... you will disagree, I know you will, its no problem.

Ask some fighters, training and fighting, very different.

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#20256 - 01/19/04 10:07 PM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
As for Bruces attributes look at the videos of him demonstrating the difference in power between karate strikes and JKD.[/QUOTE]

Thats not fighting, that does not give a good example of Bruce Lee fighting. When he is demonstrating any technique he is only demonstrating a technique. Fighting is a lot mor than demonstration and theories. Trust me on that, I think Bruce may have been a wicked Martial artist because of his determination but mate there are literally 1000's of Bruce Lee's, even during his time! The problem is Bruce was the first to make it big time in the Movies.

Could the guy fight? I am sure he could but i could give you a list of people at his time who fighting under his rules would have probably KO'd him very quickly.

Bruce was an artist, pure and simple and to think any different is really forgeting what fighting is all about. It aint about theories and demonstrations, movie making or self promotion.... its about fighting, full stop!

Power. Bruce just had good technique. Mike Tyson can hit with the power of a small bus travelling at 30kh!!! Plenty of Boxers could and do hit bloody hard, he wasnt the only guy to posses power but he was a very lucky man to have made it BIG!

I think too many people think of Bruce Lee as some kind of demi God, he wasnt, he was probably at an average fighting level where pro fighters are concerned, he was human, he had limits he had flaws and he sure as hell wasnt invincible.

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#20257 - 01/19/04 10:22 PM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gene Lebell would lift this guy of the ground and toss him in the air. Bruce was subdued by Gene I believe.

Dude I think Bruce was a fighter wether he had a fight record or not or wether he was invincible or not.

Well I can say I think [I don't know], but from what I heard about him from people like Chuck Norris and so on about his power...I wouldn't want to be the one to step in the ring with him to find out.<<I can say that.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 01-19-2004).]

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#20258 - 01/20/04 10:41 AM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Bottom line-there is no evidence to suggest Bruce lee was any kind of fighter.

There is no record of him fighting anyone much past his Wing Chuan days in Hong Kong.

There are a couple of contested incidents, however eyewitness testimony from them seems to conflict in a number of points.

On the other hand you have a number of guys that demonstrated fighting ability SAY that Bruce could fight.

Chances are we will never really know.

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#20259 - 01/20/04 07:01 PM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
There is no direct evidence (other than hearsay) of Bruce's skills. What is NOT in question was his brilliance and insight into simplistic efficiency in training. I couldn't care less of Lee could fight or not. I'm sure he could fend for himself quite well, considering how hard the man trained. Whether he could or couldn't doesn't have a THING to do with the individual JKD practitioner.


-John

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#20260 - 01/20/04 09:28 PM Re: Was Bruce Lee a fighter? And did he make JKD to actually be a fighting art?
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
As for shoalin monks Ive personally seen them do demonstrations and the feats they pull of are inhuman. They'er not realy shoalin monks,But are being payed by the chinese government to play the part . [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Isshinryukid4life (edited 01-21-2004).]

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