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#20221 - 01/18/04 05:58 PM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
A point on blood chokes, they're really misnamed as you aren't choking off the blood to the brain. What you're really doing is applying pressure to the carotid sinus which is causing the heart to believe your blood pressure is spiking and it stops beating to bring the blood pressure down.

We have a surgeon in our program. During surgery on the neck he's regularily cut off the supply of the blood through the carotid artery, and the person doesn't go unconscious as the secondary blood vessels supply enough blood to keep the brain functioning. The surgeon in my class actually pinched off both my carotid arteries (below the carotid sinus) and we continued to talk more than a minute with no effect. Which goes against the popular incorrect theory.

This is a clear case where lack of actual medical knowledge has been repeated in text after text until it takes a life of its own. I recall a discussion by a different Doctor a while ago that it was almost impossible to supply enough pressure to the artery to actually close it off.

Thus the real operating mechanism is the carotid sinus. Surgeons regularly massage it during heart surgery to do just that, stop the heart while pressure is applied correctly.

On the other hand to blithly support the blood choke as safe, and not realize you're stopping the heart beat is a very dangerous concept.

Will it work done correctly, sure. Is it really safe? Well how lucky to you feel and are you willing to live with the consequences if you're wrong? Always a pertinate question.

And I had almost the same attitudes as you've evidenced on this discussion for many years until Doctor Harper made is case.
BTW, though less than perfect, Montague makes the same case in his "Encyclopedia of Dim Mak", too.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith

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#20222 - 01/18/04 08:36 PM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Good point. I've heard that could happen if the positioning of the choke is incorrect.

Interestingly enough, here's a decent read from this very forum's home site:
http://www.fightingarts.com/content01/judo_choke.shtml


Check it out.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 01-18-2004).]

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#20223 - 01/18/04 09:39 PM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#20224 - 01/29/04 08:33 PM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
Doughnut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 197
Loc: Mid-west, U.S.A
Gee, I got alot of excelent responses, thankyou. I gather the concenus is that air chokes do not have a practical use. I wonder though... are not the strikes to the throat, very similar to air chokes, in both their effect and in their danger? Why is this superior to a quick air choke while grapaling
/ as always I apologize for spelling

Doughnut

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#20225 - 01/30/04 01:59 AM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
Shi Miao Zun Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 198
Loc: Windsor UK
In case anyof you are interested in the finer points of this.

Baroreceptors, (monitor blood pressure), are abundantly located in the walls of the aortic arch and in the internal corotid artery wall slightly above the corotid bifurcation (in the area known as the corotid sinus which is a small dilation just above the bifurcation) as well as in the walls of almost every large artery of the thoracic and neck regions. Primary control over sudden changes in blood pressure involves reflexes that originate in these baroreceptors, which happen to be sensitive to stretch.

At normal pressure the walls are stretched and the receptors are active, sending impulses via sensory nerves to centers in the brain that are responsible for coordinating information and regulating the cardiovascular system. These cardiovascular centers control the ANS nerves to the heart and blood vessels.

Baroreceptors respond to:

1 The actual pressure in the corotid sinus and aortic arch
2 To the rate of change of that pressure. 3 The pattern of nerve impulses sent to the CV centers contain information info @:
a The mean pressure
b The steepness of rise of the pulse curve
c the pulse pressure
d The HR


The corotid sinus signals are transmitted through the very small Herings nerve to the glossopharyngeal (9th cranial nerve) nerve and then to the tractus solitarius in the medullary area of the brainstem, where inhibitory interneurons affect sympathetic outflow. Increased firing of baroreceptor nerves causes a reduction in sympathetic outflow in the sympathetic efferent fibers. Decreases in sympathetic and increased in parasympathetic nerve activity to the heart reduce contractility and HR, which decreases BP. This baro reflex is highly effective at rapidly controlling BP during short term perturbations, such as postural changes.

In sort stand up and your heart rate goes up due to drop in blood pressure, choke the neck and the blood pressure increases leading to the activation of baroreceptors which leads to dropping of heart rate to releive increased pressure causing the opponent to pass out.

[This message has been edited by Shi Miao Zun (edited 01-30-2004).]

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#20226 - 01/30/04 07:49 PM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Bottom line, it would be very difficult to cause permanent damage with a "blood" choke. Easier with an airway choke. Airway chokes are more painful for a REASON! A good blood choke doesn't even hurt when applied correctly. What does that tell you. The sheer fact that there is pain is telling you something.

In short, blood chokes = better chokes.

Of course, what the hell do I know...

-John

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#20227 - 01/30/04 10:26 PM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
Shi Miao Zun Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 198
Loc: Windsor UK
I dont know what you know, but i do know that
applying pressure to the corotid sinus area will have an effect varying from a brief stun, through to rendering the person unconcious, and could cause the heart to stop permanently if damage to the nerve is significant. Damage to this nerve, fragmentation, can be undetected but may have effects in the future, ie kill you due to a massive stroke or just leave one side of your body paralysed. Also in the same area is the phrenic nerve, which controls the brains perception of diaphragm function. A strike or choke to the carotid sinus can also inhibit this nerve causing a loss of breath control.

Is short, blood chokes can cause damage or kill very quickly and easily, when your heart stops your dead, but it will take a minute or two to sufocate from a colapsed windpipe. Its also really easy to cause permanent damage to the nerves although you might not realise it at the time, pain and damage do not always occur at the same time. If you attack a nerve it shuts down, if you attack a sesitive area the nerves are still active so it hurts. Therefore, in this case the arguement that: Quote, JKogas

"A good blood choke doesn't even hurt when applied correctly. What does that tell you. The sheer fact that there is pain is telling you something."

implying more pain = more damage, does not apply here.

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#20228 - 01/31/04 07:04 AM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Pain doesn't equal damage??? I don't share that opinion. The body registers pain for a reason. The reason is the body attempting to tell the moronic person, "Hey, stop doing that because I could get hurt"

Hurt = damage. Common sense here.

People are doing blood chokes EVERY DAY HERE IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD. People are just not falling over dead. That's the difference between what is "theory" and what is proven out in "actual practice". Getting out of the text books into actual practice is a good thing on occassion.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 01-31-2004).]

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#20229 - 02/01/04 09:19 AM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
Shi Miao Zun Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 198
Loc: Windsor UK
Hi John,

If you read my post again you will see I wrote "in this case" refering to the pain = damage subject, implying that this is unusual as this rule does not apply here, which is correct, whether you agree with it or not.

As to whether it is safe or not, I was merely expounding on the point that blood chokes can be dangerous. You nor I know exactly who reads these posts and to say that when doing a blood choke it is difficult to cause damage is a little naieve as it is rather easy to kill someone using a blood choke.

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#20230 - 02/02/04 12:48 PM Re: Air chokes or blood chokes?
judodoc Offline
Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Charlottesville VA USA
Properly applied, "blood" chokes are safe.
One should only learn and practice them with a well qualified instructor however.
There are hazards.

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