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#201788 - 11/07/05 10:09 PM can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers?
Yaze Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 21
can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers?

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#201789 - 11/07/05 10:18 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
Specialist_Narms Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 4
Loc: North Georgia
I have seen demonstrations where 10 or more attack one person

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#201790 - 11/07/05 10:26 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Specialist_Narms]
shotokanwarrior19 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 129
Loc: Cortland, OH, USA
Quote:

I have seen demonstrations where 10 or more attack one person




Key word "demonstration", beating 10 people at once only happens in the movies. As far as taking on multiple attackers, it all depends on the situation, but once there is more than one attacker ur odds lower significantly.
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#201791 - 11/07/05 10:50 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
No style is geared toward "taking on" multiple attackers. If there are several attackers intent on killing you,you are dead,I don't care what style you do. The best advice I can offer would be to stay on your feet and get away as soon as possible.
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#201792 - 11/07/05 11:07 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: BrianS]
TKDBlackBelt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
In my organization when you reach black belt you start two on one freestyle, when you get higher the amount of people goes up 3 on one and so on. I agree that if you have like 10 on one ya i would say my prayers and hope i dont die but two on one is managable.
TKDBlackBelt
Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do.
-John Wooden

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#201793 - 11/08/05 12:36 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: TKDBlackBelt]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
NO

I think everyone would agree that 10 attackers is just movie stuff but I'm going to state it can't be done w/ any regularity against even 2 people.

2-on-1 / 3-on-1 freestyle is a good exercize but not as realistic as your instructors would have you believe.

I'm not even saying the attackers are intent on killing you, just controlling you (as in an arrest).

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#201794 - 11/08/05 12:51 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: hedkikr]
Mandolynn Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 195
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
TKD is as effective as any striking art against multiple attackers, and far better than grappling styles.
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#201795 - 11/08/05 01:59 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Mandolynn]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Quote:

TKD is as effective as any striking art against multiple attackers, and far better than grappling styles.




Warning: Flame War alert
Warning: Flame War alert

Go to Defcon 3!!!
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#201796 - 11/08/05 03:23 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Sorry, I think it's a fair point. If your grappling style doesn't equip you for such things (in other words, if you are stupid enough to go to ground in a multiple attacker situation) then you'd be better on your feet and not getting close to one person when it is a liability and likely to get you a riverdance rehearsal on your head.

With striking arts the emphasis is on moving and avoiding and counter striking. While not fool-proof it is probably a better option.

Personally I think the Carl Lewis approach is the better option against multiple attackers.
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#201797 - 11/08/05 06:17 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
chakuy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 124
use a gun
when you become more advanced in TKD like red or BB the start teaching you on weapons...in my opinion the best weapon for more than 3 attackers is nunchakus...
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"Nothing is so strong as gentleness and nothing is so gentle as real strength." -Ralph W. Sockman

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#201798 - 11/08/05 06:22 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: chakuy]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Except when the three assailants are police officers trying to disarm you for carrying an illegal weapon.

Guns aren't foolproof against multiple attackers if you don't know how to use them properly.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#201799 - 11/08/05 08:31 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: BrianS]
b4gu4 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 27
Loc: colorado, USA
Quote:

No style is geared toward "taking on" multiple attackers. If there are several attackers intent on killing you,you are dead,I don't care what style you do. The best advice I can offer would be to stay on your feet and get away as soon as possible.




Hey Brian - I would have to disagree with your statement "No style is geared toward "taking on" multiple attackers." Maybe your comming from and EMA point of view but if you take a look at this site you will see that bagua is designed for said task. http://www.chinesefightingarts.org/chinese_fighting_arts-bagua.htm

Jim
always learning

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#201800 - 11/08/05 08:35 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: b4gu4]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Sorry, I have to ask..What exactly is "tree shaking" and what are the benefits?
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#201801 - 11/08/05 10:03 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: JasonM]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
It is possible for TKD to be used against multiple attackers but like any other art, the difficulty more than doubles for each attacker added.
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#201802 - 11/08/05 01:20 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: trevek]
chakuy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 124
Is it legal for ten people to jump on one person?? If he doesnít have a weapon heís dead!! So I guess every rule has its exceptions right Trevek??

From my experience in guns and how people react towards it, everyone can use a gun all he has to do is shoot one of them!! The rest will be frighten and run off(if there legs could hold them))
_________________________
"Nothing is so strong as gentleness and nothing is so gentle as real strength." -Ralph W. Sockman

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#201803 - 11/08/05 03:23 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: chakuy]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
The best way to take on ten attackers is to turn into a warrior ninja, then use your super martial artist skillz and wikka up their a$$.

If you can't do this, you have a choice: a)run b)die. No offense, but of couse TKD can be _used_, doesn't mean you won't get your head kicked in. Taking on more than 1 person _with_ a weapon is a gamble at the best times, without it's just plain stupid. Forget your martial arts and take up sprinting instead
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#201804 - 11/08/05 04:02 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: TimBlack]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Like I said, the Carl Lewis approach.

Chakuy, indeed every rule has its exception. Thing is if you are walking around with flails down your pants (as we've discussed on weapons forum) it suggests you are waiting for the ten guys (or three).

Of course, i don't know what the legal situation is in Jordan. In UK nunchaku are illegal to carry (can't even watch them in Enter the Dragon).

Gun wise, yeah, you're generally right, most folk will run. Still, depends who they are. I do recall the film of the 2 British soldiers getting pulled out of a car in belfast during a funeral. Their first shot scared some people away but it didn't save them in the end.

Mind you, I suppose a Krav Maga guy would have a whole helicopter gunship at his command to obliterate ten attackers!

peace my man!

T:-)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#201805 - 11/08/05 04:44 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
StormDOA Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 142
Loc: Lansing, Mich., USA
Hey there Yaze.
I am currently prepping for my 4th dan test in TKD, my point being is that I am really sold on TKD. But before I did TKD I tried everything, 3 different kinds of karate, Judo, Tang Soo Do, Aikido, Tai Chi and Wing Chun and even some boxing. But what sold me on Traditional TKD is that I believe it is one of the two most effective systems for multiple attackers. Given that, let me climb on my soap box and lecture for a second.

Traditional TKD is often faulted for its ideal techniques. We used to have a series of Kanji on the front of the classes that said among other things "one technique done right will do the job" (very paraphrased obviosly). TKD is supposed to be based on the idea of high power bio-kinetics, in other words alot of power and speed put into a single effective technique. I am sure in some instances that is not true, as I have said before the man not the art decides the worth of a fighter.
So, as i saw it fighting multiple attackers at all would be very difficult, I have 5 times I think where i have fought multiple attackers and have a limited amount of experiance. Multple opponents is so hard because it is not like the movies where it is one person at a time, you really have to be fiierce and smart.
But the basic Idea I thought would be to engage each attacker for a minimum amount of time allowing for you to direct towards another opponent. Thus one blow and a fighter is removed is a good idea I cal lthis minimal engagement.
The other end of that spectrum which I think would work is that maximum or continued engagement. IN other words if yo ucan get a hold of one opponent and use them as a shield or weapon or at the very least an obstacle. An example of that would be a good Aikido artist.

Grappling is great for one on one combat, but has some obvious liabilities if facing more than one opponent.I mean locking one person out or throwing them loses purpose if that guys friend is kicking or grabbing at you. Even quick arm bars and locks take a alot of time.

One other good thing about TKD and multiples is how highly movement based we are in TKD. TKD is also highly cardio basedwhich becomes another factor with endurance, remember if the combat is extended at all you are doing much more than your opponents.
TKD also traditionally emphasizes long techniques, being able to hit a person from farther away is certainly a bonus in combat.

A couple of the weaknesses I percieve in TKD in that situation is the lack of sequencingthat is in TKD and the relativley little experiance we have of what to do when we are taken down to the ground, which is extremely likely in any prolonged combat, more so when facing multiples.
In a post I had JKOGAS and I spoke for a while about how essential it is to be well rounded as a combatantTKD guys learn and practice some ground work, just as i encourage grapplers to learn some quality strikes and incorporate them.


Let me stress that I am not saying that TKD is any more effective than another martial art, schools vary as do instructors and students, I have seen awful TKD schools, but I have also seen crappy schools in all arts. Again it is the man, not the art.
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Stand True

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#201806 - 11/08/05 06:38 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: StormDOA]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Grappling is great for one on one combat, but has some obvious liabilities if facing more than one opponent.I mean locking one person out or throwing them loses purpose if that guys friend is kicking or grabbing at you. Even quick arm bars and locks take a alot of time.




You would not think this if you'd ever had someone thrown at you.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#201807 - 11/09/05 01:12 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: JasonM]
b4gu4 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 27
Loc: colorado, USA
Quote:

Sorry, I have to ask..What exactly is "tree shaking" and what are the benefits?




Some break boards
Some break ice
Some break concrete blocks
and some shake trees (bigger the better!)

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#201808 - 11/11/05 07:41 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: trevek]
chakuy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 124
Quote:

Personally I think the Carl Lewis approach is the better option against multiple attackers.




in which style to they teach this??>>??
_________________________
"Nothing is so strong as gentleness and nothing is so gentle as real strength." -Ralph W. Sockman

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#201809 - 11/11/05 01:28 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: chakuy]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Sadly not in enough styles.

For those kindergarten karateka out there, Carl lewis was a champion sprinter, an Olympic one. I think his style could work equally well in the Olympics and on the street.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#201810 - 11/19/05 10:34 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
TaeKwonMiles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Cincinati, Ohio, United States
YES. Poomse forms are the basic principle for taking on multiple attackers but more advanced techniques such as spilt kicks, double jump front kicks, etc... have be evolved. For my first degree testing, I have to fight at least 2 people at one time.
One technique used in fighting two people at once it to take one out then fight the other one and then take him out and fight the other one thats getting up.
Another technique is to make a straight line between you and your oppenents so you only fight one person at a time and your 2nd or 3rd oppenent cant kick or punch around the person that your fighting
ex opp3-opp2-opp1---you

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#201811 - 11/25/05 12:50 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
Quote:

can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers?


Quote:




Quote:




Quote:






No!
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#201812 - 11/25/05 05:24 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Isshinryukid4life]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

No!




What do you base that conclusion on?
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Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#201813 - 11/25/05 11:43 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

Quote:

No!




What do you base that conclusion on?




I think he's just being a smart ass...

but any art would be stretched against multiper attackers, the success rate is going to depend on the skill of the defender ... and an art itself cant take on multiple attackers now can it

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#201814 - 11/25/05 12:09 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Christie]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
From what I hear of Ninjutsu, they appear to have some techniques dedicated directly to dealing with multiple attackers, Systema apparently has some too.

Apart from those two, TKD is imho technically equal to all other unarmed MA when it comes to multiple attackers. In fact, it has the advantage of being a standup art, which allows for more mobility. (Yes I know there are a lot of other standup MA, I said equal, not better)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#201815 - 11/29/05 06:40 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Leo_E_49]
PaulGenge Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Manchester, UK
Systema has a very different teaching method that does not rely on techniques. It does have various training drills and methods that develop the ability to work against multiples or within crowds. This comes from the Russian Bank Holiday past time of mass fights, often between opposing villages.

For an article on our approach to learning to work in crowds please check the link. I hope it helps to shed some light on how we approach learning as well as some specific drills relating to this work.

Learning to work in crowds article.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest

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#201816 - 11/30/05 05:03 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: PaulGenge]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
How to take down three attackers in three simple steps.


1. Three people come walking toward you with that "I'm gonna kick your ass" look. The first guy is walking about two feet ahead of the other two. Kwansu/Frontsnapkick him just below where the ribs meet.

2. The second attacker has a Knife. Frontsnapkick him in the nuts. Don't strike with your foot, but with your shin.

3. Now it's one on one. If you're a good practitioner you should easily win this. If you've been ripped off by a lame school then you're dead.


Edited by LameDojoHater (11/30/05 05:04 AM)

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#201817 - 11/30/05 05:35 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

How to take down three attackers in three simple steps.


1. Three people come walking toward you with that "I'm gonna kick your ass" look. The first guy is walking about two feet ahead of the other two. Kwansu/Frontsnapkick him just below where the ribs meet.

2. The second attacker has a Knife. Frontsnapkick him in the nuts. Don't strike with your foot, but with your shin.

3. Now it's one on one. If you're a good practitioner you should easily win this. If you've been ripped off by a lame school then you're dead.




If you've been told by a lame school that this actually works,you're dead.

'It's so simple'
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#201818 - 11/30/05 07:20 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: BrianS]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
I wan't told this by anyone. It's just my personal opinion. I was trying to make the point that pressure point techiques will give you a much better chance. Taking someone out with one blow is much more efficent than trying to knock them are via kick/punches to the head.

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#201819 - 11/30/05 07:32 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
Alex89 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
It would be risky too take on multiple attackers, because if one of them grabs your leg, your're screwed!

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#201820 - 11/30/05 07:37 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Alex89]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

It would be risky too take on multiple attackers, because if one of them grabs your leg, your're screwed!




It's risky taking on multiple attackers period, no matter what art you train in.

Never mind that, no matter how good or how long you've been training, its risky taking on one attacker. You never know the circumstances until your in them.

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#201821 - 11/30/05 07:39 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Christie]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

Quote:

It would be risky too take on multiple attackers, because if one of them grabs your leg, your're screwed!




It's risky taking on multiple attackers period, no matter what art you train in.

Never mind that, no matter how good or how long you've been training, its risky taking on one attacker. You never know the circumstances until your in them.




No offense but it's really dissapointing to see practitioners doubt their own abilities agianst a single attacker.

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#201822 - 11/30/05 07:44 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It would be risky too take on multiple attackers, because if one of them grabs your leg, your're screwed!




It's risky taking on multiple attackers period, no matter what art you train in.

Never mind that, no matter how good or how long you've been training, its risky taking on one attacker. You never know the circumstances until your in them.




No offense but it's really dissapointing to see practitioners doubt their own abilities agianst a single attacker.




I'm not doubting my ability, I'm being realistic. Over confidence can end you in places you do not want to be.

I am confident I can adequately defend myself, but I do not walk into the situation with the mindset that I can and will take anybody who attacks me no matter what.

You never know if they are high on drugs, if they take steroids, if they are drunk, if they have a concealed weapon, what their intention is to begin with etc. etc. until you are faced with the situation.

It is extremely naive to think you can take any untrained person anywhere no matter what all the time.

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#201823 - 11/30/05 07:54 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Christie]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It would be risky too take on multiple attackers, because if one of them grabs your leg, your're screwed!




It's risky taking on multiple attackers period, no matter what art you train in.

Never mind that, no matter how good or how long you've been training, its risky taking on one attacker. You never know the circumstances until your in them.




No offense but it's really dissapointing to see practitioners doubt their own abilities agianst a single attacker.




I'm not doubting my ability, I'm being realistic. Over confidence can end you in places you do not want to be.

I am confident I can adequately defend myself, but I do not walk into the situation with the mindset that I can and will take anybody who attacks me no matter what.

You never know if they are high on drugs, if they take steroids, if they are drunk, if they have a concealed weapon, what their intention is to begin with etc. etc. until you are faced with the situation.

It is extremely naive to think you can take any untrained person anywhere no matter what all the time.




This was years and years ago, but in the fourth grade I beat up a sixth grader because he was picking on all the fourth graders. I didn't want to take any of his crap and told him to F off. I nailed him in the head with a roundhouse kick. He then tried to grapple me, but I dug my thumb into his voicebox. By the end of it the teacher took him to the priciples office. He had blood in his teeth and was coughing badly. This was over ten years ago, but the guy was twice my size and I won.

Oh yeah, and you'll never get into a bar brawl unless you hang around the bad side of town.

Edit: Martial Arts were designed to be able to take on any average joe, and even multiple attackers. To say that you can't do any of this things is contradictory to the main point of TKD. And please nobody say that it's to stay healthy, and teach values. Sport style TKD is a bastadization of what REAL TKD should be. This is part of the reason why Muiy Tae is gaining ground agianst TKD. A Muiy Tae guy would probably beat most TKD people. (Except for the TKD guys that train seriously by stretching, working out, and full contact sparring a lot.)


Edited by LameDojoHater (11/30/05 08:03 PM)

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#201824 - 11/30/05 07:58 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It would be risky too take on multiple attackers, because if one of them grabs your leg, your're screwed!




It's risky taking on multiple attackers period, no matter what art you train in.

Never mind that, no matter how good or how long you've been training, its risky taking on one attacker. You never know the circumstances until your in them.




No offense but it's really dissapointing to see practitioners doubt their own abilities agianst a single attacker.




I'm not doubting my ability, I'm being realistic. Over confidence can end you in places you do not want to be.

I am confident I can adequately defend myself, but I do not walk into the situation with the mindset that I can and will take anybody who attacks me no matter what.

You never know if they are high on drugs, if they take steroids, if they are drunk, if they have a concealed weapon, what their intention is to begin with etc. etc. until you are faced with the situation.

It is extremely naive to think you can take any untrained person anywhere no matter what all the time.




This was years and years ago, but in the fourth grade I beat up a sixth grader because he was picking on all the fourth graders. I didn't want to take any of his crap and told him to F off. I nailed him in the head with a roundhouse kick. He then tried to grapple me, but I dug my thumb into his voicebox. By the end of it the teacher took him to the priciples office. He had blood in his teeth and was coughing badly. This was over ten years ago, but the guy was twice my size and I won.

Oh yeah, and you'll never get into a bar brawl unless you hang around the bad side of town.




That is completely irrelevant, your counter argument proves nothing.

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#201825 - 11/30/05 08:13 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Christie]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
While you were posting I edited my last post.

Oh and the point of that was to show that you CAN take on a guy twice your size with MA. Notice my SN? It says it all. I hate BBs that can't even perform sidekicks correctly or hold a decent front stance. People that are so slow at kicking, and don't know proper punching technique is sad. It's worse when you have a bad BB teach, because all the other students pick up his sloppyness. If you only show up to class for three years and don't stretch/workout/practice you shouldn't have a BB.

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#201826 - 11/30/05 08:23 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

Martial Arts were designed to be able to take on any average joe, and even multiple attackers. To say that you can't do any of this things is contradictory to the main point of TKD.




Yes that is true, I never said that you "can't" do any of these things I said it is an incorrect assumption to say that you can do it flawlessly every single time. Sometimes you don't know the person has a weapon until it's pointed at the back of your head or up against your throat. Never underestimate a person high on drugs. Somebody who is drunk can be very violent, have you trained against someone flailing violently with no consideration for their own saftey. Somebody who is under the influence, high on drugs or even just emotionally driven is not going to have a regular threashold of pain, they will not go down as easily as someone who is drug free, sober and weaponless. Now let's multiply all of that and add a few more attackers into the picture. You don't know what they are on, you don't know what their reason is, you don't know who has, what they have and if they have weapons. There are far too many factors to say you can and will always succeed in defending yourself no matter where you are. Martial arts is meant to give you that extra chance of survival, to enable you to fight adequately (and more often then not) for your life. But it is not the final solution, it is just the extra point on your side to aide in your success.

Quote:

And please nobody say that it's to stay healthy, and teach values. Sport style TKD is a bastadization of what REAL TKD should be. This is part of the reason why Muiy Tae is gaining ground agianst TKD. A Muiy Tae guy would probably beat most TKD people. (Except for the TKD guys that train seriously by stretching, working out, and full contact sparring a lot.)




Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

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#201827 - 11/30/05 08:26 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Christie Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Quote:

]Oh and the point of that was to show that you CAN take on a guy twice your size with MA.




It's irrelevant when your example is of children only half way through elementary school, not to mention your actions were not one of a true martial artist (though you were young and did not know any better).

I also never said it was impossible to take on and win against someone twice your size. Technique through training will always be more important then size and strength... but size and strength will always be a factor.

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#201828 - 11/30/05 08:36 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

While you were posting I edited my last post.

Oh and the point of that was to show that you CAN take on a guy twice your size with MA. Notice my SN? It says it all. I hate BBs that can't even perform sidekicks correctly or hold a decent front stance. People that are so slow at kicking, and don't know proper punching technique is sad. It's worse when you have a bad BB teach, because all the other students pick up his sloppyness. If you only show up to class for three years and don't stretch/workout/practice you shouldn't have a BB.




Yo VTG how's it hangin?

Fact is that when it comes to self defense, there's always a bigger dude out there. Sure, twice your size in school? No problem man.

You were real smart picking fights with other kiddies while you were in school. I bet you felt real proud. Truth is you demonstrated a lack of self control, telling someone to "F off" is asking for a fight which could have been avoided. Swearing at someone's not courteous. You talk about poor black belts, what happened to the tennets of TKD, huh, hypocrite?

Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverence
Self control
Indomitable spirit

Sun Zi was right when he said that overcoming your enemy without fighting is total victory. Lowering yourself to the point where you have to fight is nothing to be proud about.

Christie is also right.

On the street, things are different from school, you don't know whether the guy has a knife or a gun. Who knows whether he'll come back with friends and baseball bats. What if he comes after your family? What about legal implications? Use more than "reasonable force" and you're either going to be landed with a heck of a charge or it's soap on a rope for you buddy. Fighting should always be a last resort and it's always dangerous in self defense, even against "only" one attacker.

Kicking someone in the balls is going to take someone down? How many times have you kicked someone in the balls? I sure as hell have (hard too), not that I meant to. They didn't go down. Yeah you tout pressure points, but actually applying them under adrenaline dump is like trying to walk a tightrope while drunk. I pick a good old hook to the jaw over a PP attack, works the same and is way easier.

If there are more than one attackers, they aren't going to come at you one at a time. Sorry buddy, the world just doesn't work like that. While you're kicking Bill in the nuts, John and Jane are very likely going to have taken position at either side of you or have tackled you and then you're in trouble.

Too many people love to talk tough and maybe they are. But no matter how tough people are, they're only human. I wish more MAists used their heads for something other than breaking bricks.

P.S. You might want to read up on these topics, they've been covered before in much detail.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#201829 - 11/30/05 08:53 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: PaulGenge]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Systema has a very different teaching method that does not rely on techniques. It does have various training drills and methods that develop the ability to work against multiples or within crowds. This comes from the Russian Bank Holiday past time of mass fights, often between opposing villages.

For an article on our approach to learning to work in crowds please check the link. I hope it helps to shed some light on how we approach learning as well as some specific drills relating to this work.

Learning to work in crowds article.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest




Interesting, multiple attacker scenarios are of particular interest to me. Although I am a relative newcomer to this topic, I can see it is rather untouched.

As to moving in a crowd, this may be handy in a panic to avoid being crushed under a stampede, but I would honestly just keep moving with the flow of the crowd, rather than staying in one position. A pebble in a stream is worn smooth, but a leaf floating upon its surface will eventually be deposited on a bank.

Crowd survival is not quite the same issue as dealing with multiple attackers. From what I understand, most likely multiple attackers will attempt to control you then pummel you from relative safety.

For example, one may try to put you in a half nelson, while the other just hits you. Here the priority is not escaping the first attacker per se but rather defense against the primary threat of the person attacking you. You can't escape a half nelson with someone punching you can you?

Second example, 3 attackers, two rush to your sides and attempt to control your arms. They overpower you because they can use two arms to control one of your arms. Unless they are well trained, they will simply focus on controlling you for the third to attack you. Of course, they may take you down or try to apply a joint lock.

Third example, three attackers, two rush you while another circles. The two try to tackle you, the third kicks you when you're on the ground. If you KO one of the two, the other will still tackle you. If you get tackled, you're in trouble and good groundfighting abilities are a big advantage. If you manage to avoid the takedowns, you still have someone who has flanked you who may either attack or also try to take you down. And unless the other two are unconscious they'll still be dangerous; just because one takedown attempt failed doesn't mean the next will.

Fourth situation similar to the first. 3 attackers, one tries to get you in a half nelson, the other two are attacking you. Here, the likelihood of being able to defeat the two attackers is minimal. Your primary aim is non-compliance and escaping the half nelson, I've heard that taking on one other attacker from the half nelson has some times been effective but I highly doubt that two could be overcome. Kuzushi will allow you to be a moving target, grappling training will help you to escape quickly. Striking training will ensure you don't get back into your previous situation without dealing out a lot of pain and using strikes after escaping will keep you much more mobile.

I wouldn't even consider someone who has not got a good foundation in both striking and grappling training as able to deal with the above situations realistically.

Throw in weapons and things get really messy. This is what I'm talking about when I refer to multiple attackers. Not crowd control, not detainment procedures, not MA movie duelling; just survival.

Note that running like heck is the simplest solution to all of the above.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#201830 - 11/30/05 09:02 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Leo_E_49]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

Quote:

While you were posting I edited my last post.

Oh and the point of that was to show that you CAN take on a guy twice your size with MA. Notice my SN? It says it all. I hate BBs that can't even perform sidekicks correctly or hold a decent front stance. People that are so slow at kicking, and don't know proper punching technique is sad. It's worse when you have a bad BB teach, because all the other students pick up his sloppyness. If you only show up to class for three years and don't stretch/workout/practice you shouldn't have a BB.




Yo VTG how's it hangin?

Fact is that when it comes to self defense, there's always a bigger dude out there. Sure, twice your size in school? No problem man.

You were real smart picking fights with other kiddies while you were in school. I bet you felt real proud. Truth is you demonstrated a lack of self control, telling someone to "F off" is asking for a fight which could have been avoided. Swearing at someone's not courteous. You talk about poor black belts, what happened to the tennets of TKD, huh, hypocrite?

Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverence
Self control
Indomitable spirit

Sun Zi was right when he said that overcoming your enemy without fighting is total victory. Lowering yourself to the point where you have to fight is nothing to be proud about.

Christie is also right.

On the street, things are different from school, you don't know whether the guy has a knife or a gun. Who knows whether he'll come back with friends and baseball bats. What if he comes after your family? What about legal implications? Use more than "reasonable force" and you're either going to be landed with a heck of a charge or it's soap on a rope for you buddy. Fighting should always be a last resort and it's always dangerous in self defense, even against "only" one attacker.

Kicking someone in the balls is going to take someone down? How many times have you kicked someone in the balls? I sure as hell have (hard too), not that I meant to. They didn't go down. Yeah you tout pressure points, but actually applying them under adrenaline dump is like trying to walk a tightrope while drunk. I pick a good old hook to the jaw over a PP attack, works the same and is way easier.



If there are more than one attackers, they aren't going to come at you one at a time. Sorry buddy, the world just doesn't work like that. While you're kicking Bill in the nuts, John and Jane are very likely going to have taken position at either side of you or have tackled you and then you're in trouble.

Too many people love to talk tough and maybe they are. But no matter how tough people are, they're only human. I wish more MAists used their heads for something other than breaking bricks.

P.S. You might want to read up on these topics, they've been covered before in much detail.




I'm sorry. Let me tell you a bit more of the story. The fourth graders always wanted to play soccer, but there was only one soccer ball. So this sixth grader kept taking it from others and pushing them to the ground. I had the ball at the time and he wanted it. I told him to F-off, and he threw the first punch. The guy deserved to be beat up. Simple as that. I'm a martial artist, not a pacafist monk that runs away from every fight I get into.

If all the attackers have bats then you are definatly screwed. Oh and the attackers won't come at you all at once unless you let them. A lot of you guys seem to think in this alternate reality where everybody has a knife/gun in their left pocket.

Oh and on another point... I don't sit on my ass all day. I do all sorts of exercises. By the time I'm a BB I should be able to throw kicks extremely fast and hard. I should also have started up boxing classes. I know ways to add speed and power to your strikes, and how to toughen up the abs to take a good blow.

Compare this to a casual student that merely shows up to class. The casual student will get his ass kicked by one person. The good student will plant strikes hard and fast.

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#201831 - 11/30/05 09:08 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

I'm sorry. Let me tell you a bit more of the story. The fourth graders always wanted to play soccer, but there was only one soccer ball. So this sixth grader kept taking it from others and pushing them to the ground. I had the ball at the time and he wanted it. I told him to F-off, and he threw the first punch. The guy deserved to be beat up. Simple as that. I'm a martial artist, not a pacafist monk that runs away from every fight I get into.




Righto VTG whatever you say.

Quote:

If all the attackers have bats then you are definatly screwed. Oh and the attackers won't come at you all at once unless you let them. A lot of you guys seem to think in this alternate reality where everybody has a knife/gun in their left pocket.




More than a few of my friends carry concealed knives. Guns are illegal in my country.

What basis do you have that they won't come all at once? They've got the numbers. Do the math.

Think rugby, think American Football, Aussie Rules, whatever. Pileups. That's what I'm talking about.

Quote:

Oh and on another point... I don't sit on my ass all day. I do all sorts of exercises. By the time I'm a BB I should be able to throw kicks extremely fast and hard. I should also have started up boxing classes. I know ways to add speed and power to your strikes, and how to toughen up the abs to take a good blow.




You must be quite the muscle-man. But you're still human. A knife or gun will do the same thing to you as it will to anyone else.

Might I mention that an Olympic athelete, a world champion boxer and a bodybuilder can quite easily be knocked out if they get hit in the right spot.

P.S. Being fit and strong does make a big difference but it doesn't make you invincible.

Quote:

Compare this to a casual student that merely shows up to class. The casual student will get his ass kicked by one person. The good student will plant strikes hard and fast.




It really depends who he's fighting.

I am a BB, the belt won't help me in a fight (maybe I could use it to garotte someone to use as a human shield to escape). The skills, training and knowledge are what I'm banking on but I don't overestimate them. (I don't underestimate them either)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#201832 - 11/30/05 09:10 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Leo, you beat me to it....

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#201833 - 12/01/05 07:18 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Alex89 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It would be risky too take on multiple attackers, because if one of them grabs your leg, your're screwed!




It's risky taking on multiple attackers period, no matter what art you train in.

Never mind that, no matter how good or how long you've been training, its risky taking on one attacker. You never know the circumstances until your in them.




No offense but it's really dissapointing to see practitioners doubt their own abilities agianst a single attacker.




I don't doubt my abilities, I am a very good martial artist. What I stated above wasn't about facing one oponent, but multiple attackers. And I still stick to what I said, it is nearly impossible to take on multiple attackers. BTW I wasn't criticizing tae kown do.;)

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#201834 - 12/02/05 03:42 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Leo_E_49]
PaulGenge Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Manchester, UK
A crowd or group that get involved in an attack don't often go for the restraint, then hit approach (That is what martial artists might try). Usually one person in the group starts the assault with posturing then striking. As the rest of the group see that he is doing ok they feel more confident and join in. Once the victim is on the floor they all join in.

Paul Genge

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#201835 - 12/02/05 04:19 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: PaulGenge]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
No one wants to mob you when you've got a can of pepper spray in your hand.

Technology is your friend, martial arts can help.

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#201836 - 12/02/05 09:06 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Subedei]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1993
Loc: Lorton, VA
Not only is he a VTG, he's an art-basher.

A green belt who knows all about what BBs should be (and should not be) doing. Sweet.

Remember the "Martial Artist Personalities" list? This guy fits nearly every category. 'The Interpreter', 'The Assistant Instructor', and most certainly 'The Natural'.

MAKE HIM UKE!!!
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#201837 - 12/02/05 02:04 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Zombie Zero]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Hey Uke! Stop Ukeing yourself! *punch* *punch*

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#201838 - 12/02/05 05:53 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

No offense but it's really dissapointing to see practitioners doubt their own abilities agianst a single attacker.




Hey, Tank Abbot's outside waiting for you cos he heard you called him a pussy... Now, I know you aint doubting your abilities!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#201839 - 12/02/05 06:05 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Having worked as a barman I've seen a couple of fights and mopped up after one or two. Bottles, glasses, ash-trays all come into play. Where I lived in Glasgow knives and bottles were a common reality (not an alternative one). Sharpened nail files strapped to the hand weren't unknown either.

Multiple attackers? Might not all come at once but they can circle until there's an opening and then when one goes in the others follow quickly. Result: bring the Irish bagpipes and it'd be like a Riverdance show!!

And football (soccer) was a big cause of fights! Lamedojohater would be right at home.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#201840 - 12/02/05 06:16 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: PaulGenge]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

A crowd or group that get involved in an attack don't often go for the restraint, then hit approach (That is what martial artists might try). Usually one person in the group starts the assault with posturing then striking. As the rest of the group see that he is doing ok they feel more confident and join in. Once the victim is on the floor they all join in.

Paul Genge




I was giving examples, when it comes to creative human beings, anything can happen.
_________________________
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#201841 - 12/03/05 02:07 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Zombie Zero]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

Not only is he a VTG, he's an art-basher.

A green belt who knows all about what BBs should be (and should not be) doing. Sweet.

Remember the "Martial Artist Personalities" list? This guy fits nearly every category. 'The Interpreter', 'The Assistant Instructor', and most certainly 'The Natural'.

MAKE HIM UKE!!!




I don't even know what most of those things are, but I get what you're saying. I'd rather be a good practitioner than someone who merely has a belt due to showing up to class all the time.

As for this "lowly GB" saying what a BB should do...

It used to be that whenever I saw someone wearing a BB I had instant respect for them. My first two instructors were great, and truly deserved the rank. They did all their moves with great power and technique.

But now I see certian BB's do a sidekick as if it's a roundkick, and I shake my head. I see certian BB's that can't even touch their toes, and I shake my head. So you'll have to forgive me if I sound like a know it all ass.

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#201842 - 12/03/05 02:11 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: trevek]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

Quote:

No offense but it's really dissapointing to see practitioners doubt their own abilities agianst a single attacker.




Hey, Tank Abbot's outside waiting for you cos he heard you called him a pussy... Now, I know you aint doubting your abilities!




Who's abbot? Now unless he's an eight foot tall mongoloid then, no I am not doubting my abilities.

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#201843 - 12/03/05 02:27 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
LDH,

Do a google on Tank Abbot. MMA fighter. Tough. Big.

Also, dude, let's get off the berating of those that you dismiss at your school. They might very well be bad, but what's all the irritation about? A little envy, rank jealousy?

If there is a legitimate reason you dislike training there, don't. If they're not good enough, find elsewhere that is better.

If you are concerned about someone who has a BB but seems to be a slouch in his practice..dude...concentrate on your own practice and get better.

Look, you put up a post that considered fights betweend a six grader and a fourth grader. Man, I have know people stabbed in fights, your understanding of real martial arts (the benefits and what it can and can't do for one) is small indeed, judging by these posts.

Your age creeps through to underscore your background and knowledge. Why don't you practice for a decade and then ask these same questions of your older self and see what answers you get?

Until then, you are talking lunchroom chinanegans and expecting this to be real life.

-B

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#201844 - 12/03/05 02:58 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

Who's abbot? Now unless he's an eight foot tall mongoloid




He's not Mongolian, but if he was you should also be worried (ever seen a Mongolian wrestler at work?). I'm giving you then benefit of the doubt that that was what you meant and not using some schoolyard insult aimed at Downs syndrome.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#201845 - 12/03/05 02:05 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
its nice to see an earlier post with someone sharing the view that TKD is alot about power.iv said it on other forums and in talks with others and i get laughed at or slated.oh well.

i think the footwork and fitness would help as youd definitly have to keep moving.i dont think kicking would though.to keep moving ,kicking would slow you too much so its hands all the way.id say pile in and hit anything that moves as hard as possible with hand strikes/punches and keep moving.this is assuming you cant get away yet and the fight is unavoidable.
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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#201846 - 12/03/05 05:06 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: matxtx]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Move constantly, don't let them surround you, try to make them get in each others way,don't focus on one at a time

attacks that can hit multiple opponents without putting your foot down are nice. Two opponents in front of you for instance, using your right leg you can use a front kick on the left then smack the other with a sidekick.

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#201847 - 12/24/05 03:40 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Yaze]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hi. The answer is yes, tkd can be used against multiple attackers. Infact every MA style can be used against multiple attackers. But it greatly depends on how you train. For instance did your school train for multiple attackers?
Also you have to look at the situation, where are you, what are you surroundings, what time is it? is it night or day. Remember the best defense is a good offense meaning, you should make your move first specially against multiple attackers. Your first technique could be RUNNING as far away as you can, however if that option is closed to you, then strike first, and strike hard no mercy, notice I said strike, meaning chops to the throat, finger jabs to the eyes, palm strikes to the nose, short kicks to the knees or groin. Situations like this should be covered in class otherwise it can be extremely difficult to defend yourself when the reality sets in. You may not be in the right frame of mind. This can be said about all martial artist from w/e art they practice.

p.s. Remember it's better to be judge by 12 (panel of jury) than to be carried by 6 (funeral bearers)
"Do or do not...there is no try" -Yoda
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#201848 - 12/24/05 04:12 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: TeK9]
chakuy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 124
Quote:

is it night or day



mmm you got me think here but i didnt get it

I donít think so!!! You should run away dude but, if it was must fight situation your strike must be brutal. I mean you kick the first one and move to the second one, the first one should be on ground or suffering form the pain(no need to go back for him agin its like one hit n your done with him), then the second one and so on and so forth . Thatís they only way i guess ( my Opinion )
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#201849 - 12/24/05 04:44 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: chakuy]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Read my statement again, what exactly did you not agree with? We basically said the same thing only difference is you gave an exact pre-determined attack sequences, were as i didnt. Ofoucrse your shots should be brutal... and they must be delivered asquickly as possible. While you suggested big shots, I suggested little ones, poking the eyes, chopping th throat, groin shot. Keep it real. RawR
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