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#201828 - 11/30/05 08:36 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

While you were posting I edited my last post.

Oh and the point of that was to show that you CAN take on a guy twice your size with MA. Notice my SN? It says it all. I hate BBs that can't even perform sidekicks correctly or hold a decent front stance. People that are so slow at kicking, and don't know proper punching technique is sad. It's worse when you have a bad BB teach, because all the other students pick up his sloppyness. If you only show up to class for three years and don't stretch/workout/practice you shouldn't have a BB.




Yo VTG how's it hangin?

Fact is that when it comes to self defense, there's always a bigger dude out there. Sure, twice your size in school? No problem man.

You were real smart picking fights with other kiddies while you were in school. I bet you felt real proud. Truth is you demonstrated a lack of self control, telling someone to "F off" is asking for a fight which could have been avoided. Swearing at someone's not courteous. You talk about poor black belts, what happened to the tennets of TKD, huh, hypocrite?

Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverence
Self control
Indomitable spirit

Sun Zi was right when he said that overcoming your enemy without fighting is total victory. Lowering yourself to the point where you have to fight is nothing to be proud about.

Christie is also right.

On the street, things are different from school, you don't know whether the guy has a knife or a gun. Who knows whether he'll come back with friends and baseball bats. What if he comes after your family? What about legal implications? Use more than "reasonable force" and you're either going to be landed with a heck of a charge or it's soap on a rope for you buddy. Fighting should always be a last resort and it's always dangerous in self defense, even against "only" one attacker.

Kicking someone in the balls is going to take someone down? How many times have you kicked someone in the balls? I sure as hell have (hard too), not that I meant to. They didn't go down. Yeah you tout pressure points, but actually applying them under adrenaline dump is like trying to walk a tightrope while drunk. I pick a good old hook to the jaw over a PP attack, works the same and is way easier.

If there are more than one attackers, they aren't going to come at you one at a time. Sorry buddy, the world just doesn't work like that. While you're kicking Bill in the nuts, John and Jane are very likely going to have taken position at either side of you or have tackled you and then you're in trouble.

Too many people love to talk tough and maybe they are. But no matter how tough people are, they're only human. I wish more MAists used their heads for something other than breaking bricks.

P.S. You might want to read up on these topics, they've been covered before in much detail.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#201829 - 11/30/05 08:53 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: PaulGenge]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Systema has a very different teaching method that does not rely on techniques. It does have various training drills and methods that develop the ability to work against multiples or within crowds. This comes from the Russian Bank Holiday past time of mass fights, often between opposing villages.

For an article on our approach to learning to work in crowds please check the link. I hope it helps to shed some light on how we approach learning as well as some specific drills relating to this work.

Learning to work in crowds article.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest




Interesting, multiple attacker scenarios are of particular interest to me. Although I am a relative newcomer to this topic, I can see it is rather untouched.

As to moving in a crowd, this may be handy in a panic to avoid being crushed under a stampede, but I would honestly just keep moving with the flow of the crowd, rather than staying in one position. A pebble in a stream is worn smooth, but a leaf floating upon its surface will eventually be deposited on a bank.

Crowd survival is not quite the same issue as dealing with multiple attackers. From what I understand, most likely multiple attackers will attempt to control you then pummel you from relative safety.

For example, one may try to put you in a half nelson, while the other just hits you. Here the priority is not escaping the first attacker per se but rather defense against the primary threat of the person attacking you. You can't escape a half nelson with someone punching you can you?

Second example, 3 attackers, two rush to your sides and attempt to control your arms. They overpower you because they can use two arms to control one of your arms. Unless they are well trained, they will simply focus on controlling you for the third to attack you. Of course, they may take you down or try to apply a joint lock.

Third example, three attackers, two rush you while another circles. The two try to tackle you, the third kicks you when you're on the ground. If you KO one of the two, the other will still tackle you. If you get tackled, you're in trouble and good groundfighting abilities are a big advantage. If you manage to avoid the takedowns, you still have someone who has flanked you who may either attack or also try to take you down. And unless the other two are unconscious they'll still be dangerous; just because one takedown attempt failed doesn't mean the next will.

Fourth situation similar to the first. 3 attackers, one tries to get you in a half nelson, the other two are attacking you. Here, the likelihood of being able to defeat the two attackers is minimal. Your primary aim is non-compliance and escaping the half nelson, I've heard that taking on one other attacker from the half nelson has some times been effective but I highly doubt that two could be overcome. Kuzushi will allow you to be a moving target, grappling training will help you to escape quickly. Striking training will ensure you don't get back into your previous situation without dealing out a lot of pain and using strikes after escaping will keep you much more mobile.

I wouldn't even consider someone who has not got a good foundation in both striking and grappling training as able to deal with the above situations realistically.

Throw in weapons and things get really messy. This is what I'm talking about when I refer to multiple attackers. Not crowd control, not detainment procedures, not MA movie duelling; just survival.

Note that running like heck is the simplest solution to all of the above.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#201830 - 11/30/05 09:02 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Leo_E_49]
LameDojoHater Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 49
Quote:

Quote:

While you were posting I edited my last post.

Oh and the point of that was to show that you CAN take on a guy twice your size with MA. Notice my SN? It says it all. I hate BBs that can't even perform sidekicks correctly or hold a decent front stance. People that are so slow at kicking, and don't know proper punching technique is sad. It's worse when you have a bad BB teach, because all the other students pick up his sloppyness. If you only show up to class for three years and don't stretch/workout/practice you shouldn't have a BB.




Yo VTG how's it hangin?

Fact is that when it comes to self defense, there's always a bigger dude out there. Sure, twice your size in school? No problem man.

You were real smart picking fights with other kiddies while you were in school. I bet you felt real proud. Truth is you demonstrated a lack of self control, telling someone to "F off" is asking for a fight which could have been avoided. Swearing at someone's not courteous. You talk about poor black belts, what happened to the tennets of TKD, huh, hypocrite?

Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverence
Self control
Indomitable spirit

Sun Zi was right when he said that overcoming your enemy without fighting is total victory. Lowering yourself to the point where you have to fight is nothing to be proud about.

Christie is also right.

On the street, things are different from school, you don't know whether the guy has a knife or a gun. Who knows whether he'll come back with friends and baseball bats. What if he comes after your family? What about legal implications? Use more than "reasonable force" and you're either going to be landed with a heck of a charge or it's soap on a rope for you buddy. Fighting should always be a last resort and it's always dangerous in self defense, even against "only" one attacker.

Kicking someone in the balls is going to take someone down? How many times have you kicked someone in the balls? I sure as hell have (hard too), not that I meant to. They didn't go down. Yeah you tout pressure points, but actually applying them under adrenaline dump is like trying to walk a tightrope while drunk. I pick a good old hook to the jaw over a PP attack, works the same and is way easier.



If there are more than one attackers, they aren't going to come at you one at a time. Sorry buddy, the world just doesn't work like that. While you're kicking Bill in the nuts, John and Jane are very likely going to have taken position at either side of you or have tackled you and then you're in trouble.

Too many people love to talk tough and maybe they are. But no matter how tough people are, they're only human. I wish more MAists used their heads for something other than breaking bricks.

P.S. You might want to read up on these topics, they've been covered before in much detail.




I'm sorry. Let me tell you a bit more of the story. The fourth graders always wanted to play soccer, but there was only one soccer ball. So this sixth grader kept taking it from others and pushing them to the ground. I had the ball at the time and he wanted it. I told him to F-off, and he threw the first punch. The guy deserved to be beat up. Simple as that. I'm a martial artist, not a pacafist monk that runs away from every fight I get into.

If all the attackers have bats then you are definatly screwed. Oh and the attackers won't come at you all at once unless you let them. A lot of you guys seem to think in this alternate reality where everybody has a knife/gun in their left pocket.

Oh and on another point... I don't sit on my ass all day. I do all sorts of exercises. By the time I'm a BB I should be able to throw kicks extremely fast and hard. I should also have started up boxing classes. I know ways to add speed and power to your strikes, and how to toughen up the abs to take a good blow.

Compare this to a casual student that merely shows up to class. The casual student will get his ass kicked by one person. The good student will plant strikes hard and fast.

Top
#201831 - 11/30/05 09:08 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

I'm sorry. Let me tell you a bit more of the story. The fourth graders always wanted to play soccer, but there was only one soccer ball. So this sixth grader kept taking it from others and pushing them to the ground. I had the ball at the time and he wanted it. I told him to F-off, and he threw the first punch. The guy deserved to be beat up. Simple as that. I'm a martial artist, not a pacafist monk that runs away from every fight I get into.




Righto VTG whatever you say.

Quote:

If all the attackers have bats then you are definatly screwed. Oh and the attackers won't come at you all at once unless you let them. A lot of you guys seem to think in this alternate reality where everybody has a knife/gun in their left pocket.




More than a few of my friends carry concealed knives. Guns are illegal in my country.

What basis do you have that they won't come all at once? They've got the numbers. Do the math.

Think rugby, think American Football, Aussie Rules, whatever. Pileups. That's what I'm talking about.

Quote:

Oh and on another point... I don't sit on my ass all day. I do all sorts of exercises. By the time I'm a BB I should be able to throw kicks extremely fast and hard. I should also have started up boxing classes. I know ways to add speed and power to your strikes, and how to toughen up the abs to take a good blow.




You must be quite the muscle-man. But you're still human. A knife or gun will do the same thing to you as it will to anyone else.

Might I mention that an Olympic athelete, a world champion boxer and a bodybuilder can quite easily be knocked out if they get hit in the right spot.

P.S. Being fit and strong does make a big difference but it doesn't make you invincible.

Quote:

Compare this to a casual student that merely shows up to class. The casual student will get his ass kicked by one person. The good student will plant strikes hard and fast.




It really depends who he's fighting.

I am a BB, the belt won't help me in a fight (maybe I could use it to garotte someone to use as a human shield to escape). The skills, training and knowledge are what I'm banking on but I don't overestimate them. (I don't underestimate them either)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#201832 - 11/30/05 09:10 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Christie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 872
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Leo, you beat me to it....

Top
#201833 - 12/01/05 07:18 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: LameDojoHater]
Alex89 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

It would be risky too take on multiple attackers, because if one of them grabs your leg, your're screwed!




It's risky taking on multiple attackers period, no matter what art you train in.

Never mind that, no matter how good or how long you've been training, its risky taking on one attacker. You never know the circumstances until your in them.




No offense but it's really dissapointing to see practitioners doubt their own abilities agianst a single attacker.




I don't doubt my abilities, I am a very good martial artist. What I stated above wasn't about facing one oponent, but multiple attackers. And I still stick to what I said, it is nearly impossible to take on multiple attackers. BTW I wasn't criticizing tae kown do.;)

Top
#201834 - 12/02/05 03:42 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Leo_E_49]
PaulGenge Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Manchester, UK
A crowd or group that get involved in an attack don't often go for the restraint, then hit approach (That is what martial artists might try). Usually one person in the group starts the assault with posturing then striking. As the rest of the group see that he is doing ok they feel more confident and join in. Once the victim is on the floor they all join in.

Paul Genge

Top
#201835 - 12/02/05 04:19 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: PaulGenge]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
No one wants to mob you when you've got a can of pepper spray in your hand.

Technology is your friend, martial arts can help.

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#201836 - 12/02/05 09:06 AM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Subedei]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1991
Loc: Lorton, VA
Not only is he a VTG, he's an art-basher.

A green belt who knows all about what BBs should be (and should not be) doing. Sweet.

Remember the "Martial Artist Personalities" list? This guy fits nearly every category. 'The Interpreter', 'The Assistant Instructor', and most certainly 'The Natural'.

MAKE HIM UKE!!!
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#201837 - 12/02/05 02:04 PM Re: can TKD be used to take on mutiple attackers? [Re: Zombie Zero]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Hey Uke! Stop Ukeing yourself! *punch* *punch*

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