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#201655 - 11/07/05 07:15 PM Knees in or out for horse stance?
ShaolinNinja Offline
hates silicone bubishi

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 301
Loc: Ireland
Most kung fu systems involve a horse stance where the feet are spread and pointed forward, the back straight and the knees pushed outwards towards the toes. Wuzuquan, however (and maybe some other systems, I don't know), uses a different varient where the knees are pushed together so "it's like you're holding a basketball between your knees and a pencil between your buttocks."

What's the idea of pushing the knees in instead of out? Does it target different muscles? Does it reduce stress on the knees?
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#201656 - 11/07/05 10:15 PM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: ShaolinNinja]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
probably depends on application. the knees together could be for simultaneous protection while creating a 'rooting' effect to hold ground. The open stance can be utilized nicely for throws (or to prevent from being thrown) and sinking power...not necessarily in that order

practice both. then, whichever situation you find yourself in...take your pick.

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#201657 - 11/07/05 10:18 PM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: ShaolinNinja]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

It just so happened I've done both. Knees out in my boyhood days and knees in much older.

The different approaches taken is due to a fundamental difference in combat-technique philosophy.

The knees out is more suitable and less clumsy when the combat techniques involve 'bigger / wider longer' hand and leg movements and less static (i.e. some jumping etc.)

The knee in can be seen mostly in the arts from Fukien Province, where as you mentioned Wuzuguan (5 Ancestors) and other karate progenies came from. These arts have predominantly close range, short striking movements and the knee in stance is better at generating enough power for this kind of in-fighting techniques -- hence the pigeon-toed stance for the sanchin kata in karate and Wuzuguan. Another well known short-range system that adopts the knee in is of course Wing Chun.

The most representatives of the knee out system with long range, open, large movements are Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar and to do these large, open, hand swinging movements, the knee out is better for power generation.
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#201658 - 12/08/05 04:16 PM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: ShaolinNinja]
To_cool_moon332 Offline
TROLL

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 9
HI your knees would be like out and straight and if you were taking basic clases of this stuff like tae kwon do or white crane or white tiger kung-fu you would know this stuff and it would be pointing out straight like someone sayd in the post ubove. Your welcome and im just helping out

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#201659 - 12/08/05 10:31 PM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: ShaolinNinja]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Well being a former Shuai Jiao practitioner, I did knees out cuz it helped to generate that space where we can push ourself up on throws [like the hip throw, we bend down on our knees and then push up hip onto their addomen]. It also helps when we are being tackled, thus going into the horsestance will lower the centre of gravity and you won't fall over [theory].

As for knees in I've only experienced in Karate, especially the Sanchin Dachi. It helps protecting the groin area because you're twisting your knees inward, thus sending the "sack" into the body.

Now the karate term for these two movements, if I recall right, is Kiba Dachi [Horsestance] and Sanchin Dachi[Pigeon toed-stance].

-Taison out
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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#201660 - 12/08/05 10:58 PM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: Taison]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Butterfly, Leo & Taison, Long Live S.E.A.?

Its a Zoo.

Butterfly = Insect

Leo = Mammal

Taison = Jungle Man?

Yep, we'er gonna conquer the world!!!!
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#201661 - 12/08/05 11:26 PM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

Butterfly, Leo & Taison, Long Live S.E.A.?

Its a Zoo.

Butterfly = Insect

Leo = Mammal

Taison = Jungle Man?

Yep, we'er gonna conquer the world!!!!




LOL, as said before, This is insane. . .
I looked on the FA map, and saw that there's only 3 people in Asia, while the rest is in the US. Assuming Leo is of Hokkien ancestry, and you're ethnic Chinese. We got like 3 chinese dudes here. My grandma is of Teo Chow, Tae Jiew, whatever you call it [Chao Zhou city, Canton province] so that makes me 1/3 Chinese.

Indeed, it's a zoo.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#201662 - 12/09/05 08:14 AM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: ShaolinNinja]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
From what I have gathered at this point, the knee position will be dictated by the position of the foot. In dynamic stances it is always a good idea to have the knee and the toes pointing in the same direction. This lessens the amount of torque being placed on the knee joint, and lessens the chance you will have knee damage.
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Chris Haynes

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#201663 - 12/10/05 01:29 PM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: Fisherman]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
The knee should point to the direction that you are attacking. Since you would prob be turning into another stance I would try to keep the knees in as much as possible.

If you are using the traditional horse then look at
http://www.shaolinwolf.com/morechitrainharder/stances1.htm
He explains the idea of linking each part of the process of generating power. Most people make the mistake of not turning the feet.. it couses as small loss of power but also allot of stress on the knees. Even boxers follow this princ.

In WC we follow this idea strictly. Its a Night and day thing try testing it.. you will see that same results.

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#201664 - 12/10/05 01:39 PM Re: Knees in or out for horse stance? [Re: monji112000]
goedikey Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 59
Loc: CANADA
I recently have been taught that one great application of the horse stance was to sit on a opponents leg to break it. It was demonstrates to me during close quarters where the opponent was trying to sweep. That was VERY effective.

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